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Archive of: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Archive desc: The Internet home for the Heinlein Forum
Archived by: webnews@sff.net
Archive date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 15:29:48
============================================================
Article 22780
From: fader555@aol.com (Fader)
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 07:13:58 GMT
Subject: Re: DSL ?????
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 16:56:33 -0400, JT <JT@REM0VE.sff.net> wrote:
>At least you know to ask! That puts you ahead of at least 40% of the
>population right there! ;)
"a man gots to be aware of his limitations" <G>
Thanx, JT
Fader
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22781
From: fader555@aol.com (Fader)
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 07:20:09 GMT
Subject: Re: DSL ?????
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
OK, so router ( with included firewall), some anti-virus & Zone alarm
then I'm all set
I can do that
thanx, Eli
Coming soon to a HF in your town,
Fader faster (sorry<G>)
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22782
From: georule@civilwarstlouis.com
Date: 1 Sep 2003 13:06:02 GMT
Subject: Worldcon Heinlein Reports
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Y'all might enjoy checkout out some of Deb's reports from worldcon at www.robertaheinlein.com.
. .a fun time was had by all; even if, unlike my wife, I didn't get to wear
RAH's Annapolis class ring. . .
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22783
From: georule@civilwarstlouis.com
Date: 1 Sep 2003 16:41:08 GMT
Subject: Re: Worldcon Heinlein Reports
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Btw, for those who haven't had the pleasure, Amy Baxter is a real sweetie-pie.
The above is me teasing my wife, for which some day she will correct me
in the manner that Lazarus suggested for practical jokers. I took a picture
of Deb wearing the class ring and Ginny's wedding ring too. I asked her
what the 13 year old RAH fan she was would think if we could go back through
time to tell her she would be wearing them some day. She just boggled at
the thot.
A bit of misinformation apparently was passed along at the con.
FOR US, THE LIVING is NOT currently available for pre-order at Amazon.com.
At least we couldn't find it. We will keep looking tho and let y'all know
as soon as it can be ordered that way.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22784
From: gunner"
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 21:44:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Heinlein Character Test
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
it claims i belong in "time enough...", while i'm getting old, own a kilt,
and several firearms, i am not a redhead. and deb, doesn't everyone check
the area out before they hit the rack?
"gunner"
----------------------------------
"C. H. Cardozo" <cadozo@planet-save.com> wrote in message
news:3F30AA68.7050307@planet-save.com...
> One of those pseudo-personality tests, in this case, "Which Heinlein
> Book Should You Have Been A Character In?" is at:
>
http://quizilla.com/users/dunkelza/quizzes/Which%20Heinlein%20Book%20Should%
20You%20Have%20Been%20A%20Character%20In%3F/
>
> My result was "You belong in The Man Who Sold The Moon. You are a
> dreamer. People don't understand you your calling, and often get in your
> way. Frontiers call to you, and you will breathe your last breath as you
> gaze back from a distant horizon."
>
> That seems pretty on the money for me.
>
> Carol
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22785
From: gunner"
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 21:47:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Reprinting Galactic Citizen
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
that sounds most interesting deb, keep us posted, da?
"gunner"
-----------------------------------
"Deb Houdek Rule" <debrule@dahoudek.com> wrote in message
news:3f356bc0.1393122704@NEWS.SFF.NET...
>
> I'd like to put elements from "Galactic Citizen" on our Heinlein
> website (http://www.robertaheinlein.com), in a Heinlein Forum
> section--been looking through the old issues and there's some really
> fine work in them (which I always knew), articles, artwork, poems, and
> fiction. I want to start with the most Heinlein-related stuff, plus
> the poems and artwork to act as illustrations, and expand from there
> into the fiction if it looks like the readers are appreciating it. I
> published the first four issues and WJaKe took over from there, but
> copyrights remained with the authors and artists.
>
> Here's the things I'd like to start with. Please let me know if it's
> okay with you to put your work on the website:
>
> CHUCK "DOC" COFFIN-"Tribute to Robert A. Heinlein", issue 2;
> "Starship Troopers Reviewed", issue 2
>
> ROSIE POSTELNEK--your issue 2 poems, "Dreams, I thought, Music"
>
> DEANNA HIGGINBOTHAM--your artwork: "No Excuses", "Lovely", "Equally
> Lovely", "Proof of Title", "Mama Maureen"
>
> STEVE BECK--I want carte blanche on your artwork, but would pretty
> much emphasize those that weren't done specifically for Bytor's or
> SIFI Rob's stories.
>
> JT & SIFI ROB--ditto the carte blanche on your poems, if you're okay
> with the general idea of putting them on the website then we can work
> out which ones you do or don't want published on the web.
>
> BETH, JAMES HUNT--likewise on the poems
>
> WJaKE--issue 4 article "A Visit to Butler, MO" by Paul Van Bloem &
> William J. Keaton. I'd really like to put this article up, but don't
> recall seeing Paul around for ages. WJaKe, do you have contact? Or can
> give solo permission? Or a rewrite to your own solo version?
>
> There's a lot more I'd like to mine from Galactic Citizen, but these
> are a start.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Deb (D.A. Houdek)
> http://www.dahoudek.com
> http://www.robertaheinlein.com
> http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22786
From: georule@civilwarstlouis.com
Date: 2 Sep 2003 03:51:21 GMT
Subject: Re: Heinlein Character Test
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"You belong in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. You value freedom above all
else. You would fight and die for your family and your home."
And I didn't even claim to be plotting revolution in the evening.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22787
From: James R. Cunningham"
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 04:36:42 -0700
Subject: Re: Worldcon Heinlein Reports
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
That's why Ginny loved her so (as do my wife and I).
JimC
georule@civilwarstlouis.com wrote:
>
> Btw, for those who haven't had the pleasure, Amy Baxter is a real sweetie-pie.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22788
From: gunner"
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 00:02:38 -0400
Subject: Re: DSL ?????
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
here's what my son, the resident computer mavin says...
-------------------------
"Fader" <fader555@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3f4db080.133790122@news.sff.net...
> I'm supposedly getting a DSL line, & I'm looking to hook up another
> computer to the router(?) that comes with the deal. Now I was told
> that it could be hooked up to 10 computer, & the first one could be
> connected with a USB, if it was in the same room, then the others or
> if it was not in the same room would need a wireless adapter.
---------------------------------------
the problem with wireless is that i transmits a radio signal on 801.5 mhz
and can be picked up by anyone within range, approx 1,500 feet and your
computer hacked into. if your dsl modem has a "cat 5" or "networking cable"
phone type jack you could plug it into a "linksys" type box and run a cat 5
cable to a networking card in the back of your computer then run network
cables from the "linksys" box to the other computer(s).
------------------------------------------
> Q1 - Wouldn't a really long USB cable work for that 1st computer?
--------------------------------
most of the usb cables around seem to max out around 6 feet.
--------------------------
> Q2 - Firewall protection is supposed to be built into the router, do I
> need more than that, & does it still need some type of anti-virus
> software as well?
----------------------------------
a second firewall installed in the computer itself is always a good idea and
a good anti-virus programme is a must no matter what the dsl service, router
box or whatever provides. the dsl server and router box don't "see" viruses,
only data passing through. norton systemworks/norton internet security
and/or zonealarm have good reputations and i believe free versions may be
available, "adaware" is also a good idea to spot and kill spyware such as
"tracking cookies", "gator" and "cydoor".
-------------------------------
> Thanx for any help, & also if there's something I seem like I'm not
> asking that I should be, clue me in, remember I'm only semi(or
> less)-computer literate.
Fader
-----------------------------------
that's the best we can do fader, likely others will have more and better
ideas, hope it does help and good luck.
"gunner"
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22789
From: fader555@aol.com (Fader)
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 07:31:54 GMT
Subject: Re: DSL ?????
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Wed, 3 Sep 2003 00:02:38 -0400, "gunner" <gunnera4@sover.net>
wrote:
Thanx, gunner.
It's slowly coming together, won't really know if it's gonna happen
till 9/8 when they send someone to the house.
Fader
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22790
From: Dee"
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 12:32:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Reprinting Galactic Citizen
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Deb Houdek Rule" <debrule@dahoudek.com> wrote in message
news:3f356bc0.1393122704@NEWS.SFF.NET...
> DEANNA HIGGINBOTHAM--your artwork: "No Excuses", "Lovely", "Equally
> Lovely", "Proof of Title", "Mama Maureen"
Deb--
Certainly feel free to use. I had forgotten them. I remember now that
some of them almost looked like woodcuts because of the limitations of
scanners at that time.
--Dee
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22791
From: David Wright"
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 12:29:17 -0400
Subject: Changes on The Heinlein Society web site
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Deb Houdek Rule has made some significant changes to the Heinlein Society
web site
http://heinleinsociety.org
In addition to sprucing up the Logo and RAH's picture, she has added the
goals of the Society and other information to the main page , including
links to the text pages themselves for _FUTL_ and The Heinlein Award which
was awarded at Torcon. I was very impressed with the new look.
Thanks Deb
--
David Wright
http://www.alltel.net/~dwrighsr/index.html
http://heinleinsociety.org
Help us prepare for the upcoming Centennial of the birthday of Robert A.
Heinlein
http://heinlein100.org
Anytime is a good time to join us in The Heinlein Society
http://heinleinsociety.org/membership.html
http://heinleinsociety.org/join.html
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22792
From: David Wright"
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 12:51:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Changes on The Heinlein Society web site
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"David Wright" <dwrighsr@alltel.net> wrote in message
news:bjaa5o$h123p$1@ID-53646.news.uni-berlin.de...
> Deb Houdek Rule has made some significant changes to the Heinlein Society
> web site
>
> http://heinleinsociety.org
>
> In addition to sprucing up the Logo and RAH's picture, she has added the
> goals of the Society and other information to the main page , including
> links to the text pages themselves for _FUTL_ and The Heinlein Award
which
> was awarded at Torcon. I was very impressed with the new look.
>
I have just now added a link to the _FUTL_ page on
http://heinleinsociety.org which allows you to place your order for the book
and which directly benefits The Heinlein Society. To see other books which
can be order in this manner check http://heinleinsociety.org/libraries.html
--
David Wright
http://www.alltel.net/~dwrighsr/index.html
http://heinleinsociety.org
Help us prepare for the upcoming Centennial of the birthday of Robert A.
Heinlein
http://heinlein100.org
Anytime is a good time to join us in The Heinlein Society
http://heinleinsociety.org/membership.html
http://heinleinsociety.org/join.html
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22793
From: William J. Keaton"
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 16:29:47 -0400
Subject: 10 years to plan....
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
So, are we ready for this?
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030902/sc_nm/science_ast
eroid_dc
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22794
From: David M. Silver"
Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 13:43:25 -0700
Subject: Re: 10 years to plan....
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
In article <3f58f20f.0@news.sff.net>,
"William J. Keaton" <wjake@prodigy.net> wrote:
> http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030902/sc_nm/science_ast
> eroid_dc
Arrgh! The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Respectfully yours,
Chicken Little
;-)
--
David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, Lt.(jg), USN, R'td, 1907-88
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22795
From: fader555@aol.com (Fader)
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 04:13:40 GMT
Subject: Re: DSL ?????
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 07:44:28 GMT, fader555@aol.com (Fader) wrote:
Still figuring things out, thanx to all for their advice.
It occurred to me that I'm going to have to redo something with IE &
FreeAgent, since my connection will be changing, any hints?
Fader
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22796
From: David M. Silver"
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 00:00:57 -0700
Subject: Repost: Heinlein Society Torcon Report
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
This was posted a couple days ago on alt.fan.heinlein, so forgive me if
it's the second time you've read it. Here 'tis, grammar errors and all
still mostly uncorrected.
Torcon3 Report (sort of abbreviated -- we'll have more in the upcoming
newsletter)
I left from LAX early Wednesday night, August 27, after checking in the
mandatory two hours early; and the plane arrived in Toronto one hour
late, the next morning, August 28, about 7:30 AM, EDT (after having sat
on the take off strip at LAX for 90 minutes while they fixed the cabin
attendants' microphone -- so Air West could be sure we heard all the
commercials they now spiel in addition to the standard safety
announcements). Phil Paine, a friend of Bill Patterson's, graciously met
me at Pearson International in Toronto, and led me on a mad toad's ride
via bus shuttle, subway, and streetcar, taking about an hour but costing
only $2.50 Canadian, to my downtown hotel, The Grand, a former Royal
Canadian Mounted Police headquarters, where I had rented a suite for The
Heinlein Society.
Phil was a life-saver for us during the Con. He'd arranged to print
3,000 black and white flyers with our advertisement made by Art McNutt
announcing the Awards Dinner and the Blood Drive, and delivered them to
Torcon's committee to stuff them individually in the bags Torcon gave
out upon registration to attendees, so they would know of these events
in time to attend despite the much delayed printing and mailing of the
last progress report and souvenir program which had similar ads that
were not seen by anyone. [Most attendees never received the last
progress report before leaving for Torcon; and we were informed when we
arrived at the Con that the Souvenir Program wouldn't be ready until
Sunday. Not a good situation when you're depending on advertisements to
sell tickets for a dinner scheduled for Friday and publicize blood drive
set for Saturday. I expressed only a *few* unkind thoughts about
publications directors who blow deadlines so badly that advertising is
ineffectual and wasted; but then got to work.]
I invited Phil to attend the awards dinner as our guest. I was happy to
see later he did.
After keeping me company for a late and much needed breakfast, Phil left
for work; and I took a cab to the Convention Centre, picked up my
registration and went to the fan table area to set up the big Heinlein
Society banner we use, laid out a few copies of the Newsletter I'd
brought; and got ready to push dinner tickets. Sam Kramer met me there
within thirty minutes; and we got started selling tickets until it got
close to 5 PM, when I had go to moderate the first of our panels,
"Heinlein's Women: Just Like the Girl that Married Dear Old Dad." Sam
got a few cups of tea into me so I was able to pronounce my name despite
the really bad case of jet lag I had by the time the panel began.
The panel, despite being scheduled on a Thursday which knocked out both
Robert James and Deb Houdek Rule from participating, since their flights
weren't due in until later that evening, went very well and was attended
by a full room.
Larry Niven and Elizabeth Ann Hull, Fredrick Pohl's English Professor
wife, made up a great attraction as our guests on the panel and together
were probably the reason for the full room attendance we had. Fran Van
Cleave, a Society member, several of whose recent stories have appeared
in Analog, and Pat York, a teacher from Buffalo, both did wonderful jobs
on the panel, keeping a good balance in their presentations. Dr. Hull
had a few interesting approaches to the subject; and I managed to keep
from getting into any arguments with her, except once, when she "proved"
her point that Heinlein wasn't so unique in his feminist viewpoints in
the 1930s and 40s, by citing several obscure novels by truly obscure
writers of the 1930s and 40s, which she said had equally feminist and
far in advance views in their times. Perhaps so, but it would be nice if
I'd ever heard of them in sixty years that includes an English degree
from a fairly decent university; and if someone still read them. Larry
gave a great overview of Heinlein's women characters and was the essence
of healing reason so the panel never quite got out of control.
Later that evening, my sister Jane arrived with some more newsletters
and relieved Sam and me at the fan table; and Deb and Geo Rule arrived
with all sorts of great pre-printed items Deb had created to promote our
events, which they set up. I was so jet-lagged, I don't even remember
going to dinner; but I must have gotten back to the hotel, because I
awoke the next day ready and raring to go.
Sam Kramer, Peter Scott, and Mike Sheffield started manning the fan
table early Friday morning with Geo and Deb while Jane, Alan Milner (who
had arrived Thursday night) and I attended to a few logistic details.
Jane and Alan set out to the banks to change the large amount of US
dollars I had brought to pay for the dinner into Canadian, while I
arranged with the printer Phil had lined up to print up quickly a few
things -- the big sign we use to advertise the panels we'd scheduled,
the financial statements and reports for the Society's annual membership
meeting, and a great looking full color flyer for For Us, the Living,
that Simon & Schuster had made up and e-mailed a PDF to me in Toronto.
Phil had dropped off the remaining black and white dinner advertisements
for Sam and Mike to use; and an author named Keith DeCandido had brought
out from New York for Simon & Schuster some nice tasteful table signs
announcing For Us, the Living. We were able to use both at the fan table
and later at the dinner. By the time I got to the fan table with the
sign and flyers, etc., I was happy to see that Sam, Mike, Peter and the
rest who had helped out were doing great on selling tickets to the
dinner, and beginning to feel a little relieved about finances. Alan and
Jane arrived with the Canadian cash just in time; and we left a note on
the fan table and left for our 1 PM corporate meeting in the Royal York
Fairmount.
We held the Annual Corporate General Membership Meeting on time, with
eighteen members, and three directors, Alan Milner, Charles N. Brown,
the publisher of Locus, and myself physically and one, Dr. Kondo,
present by power of attorney to me, and one non-member visitor. Joe
Haldeman had been scheduled by Torcon for a panel and a luncheon that
conflicted, before he had been elected as a director, and I expressed
his regrets conveyed to me at his not being able to attend.
Bill Patterson had gotten hung up in a transportation glitch, so I
expressed his apologies for missing Torcon as well, and I presided at
the meeting.
The Minutes were approved as read. My Secretary Treasurer's Financial
Report was given and commented upon. We conducted our annual Election of
Directors whose terms were expiring. Charles N. Brown was unanimously
reelected to a three year term. I surrendered the gavel to Mr. Milner,
and while he presided I was reelected to another three year term as
well. Both Mr. Milner, before he surrendered the gavel, and I each
introduced and commended all those Committee Chairs who were present,
including Mike Sheffield, who has done a wonderful job on blood drives
this year, Peter Scott, who equally has worked hard on plans for the
2007 Centennial celebration, Geo Rule, whose efforts to organize the
academic committee are laudable, Keith Kato, who has saved us much time
in arranging for social activities, and Jane Silver, whose membership
services efforts have been especially fruitful, as demonstrated by the
much improved dues payments situation since she took over the job.
We also introduced, thanked and commended Dr. Amy Baxter, Ginny's
'adopted' granddaughter, who was present with her husband, Dr. Louis
Calderon, also both members of the Society, and who did so much to ease
Ginny's last illness. After thanking those present, we adjourned the
meeting and made the trek back to the Convention Center for our next
panel, "Heinlein 101: All You Ever Wanted to Know About Heinlein But
Were Afraid to Ask."
Robert "Doc" James was all ready to go when we arrived, passing out the
prepared outlines he had made to the audience which was already filling
up the room. Our panel which was very lively and well-presented, was
once again given to a standing room only crowd. Brad Lyau and Deb Houdek
Rule joined Robert and me for the panel, and everyone did their usual
splendid job, while I moderated and tried to stay out of trouble. Once
it was finished, some of us took off for our hotels to get ready for the
dinner, while Deb and Fran Van Cleave ably filled in on a "Heinlein and
Sex" panel set just one hour before the dinner that some of us had to
miss.
Back at the hotel, Peter Scott, Jane Silver, and Sam Kramer got the
dinner list straightened out, and final place cards printed up; and we
finished dressing and left for the restaurant. I was greatly relieved to
find we'd hit close to our break-even point for the dinner, with 93 paid
guests, and two additional "comps," giving us a total of 95 official
guests for the dinner (unless someone slipped another comp or two in
while I wasn't looking -- which was always possible.)
Arriving at the restaurant at 5:30 PM, we had the usual mad dash to get
everything in place: Peter Scott got the AV tech squared away, Sam and
Jane and everyone else cooperated in getting the place settings down,
Deb and Geo, assisted ably by Jake Keaton, set up the cameras to tape
the event, while Alan Milner acted as my substitute host, keeping things
going, while I paid off the restaurant and the service from which we'd
rented the AV equipment and set up.
Guests did arrive indeed at 6 PM, sharp! and we let them take their
seats while cocktails were served. It was a well dressed, wonderful
looking crowd, and everyone seemed very excited and pleased to be there.
During the cocktail hour, Teresa Redmond arrived, looking beautiful as
she always does -- hair styled like Friday Baldwin and ready to help our
blood drive the next day, and promptly sat in my lap at the head table,
and while the cameras clicked and flashed, provided ample evidence for
my wife Andrea to keep things warm for me at home for the next several
months, by hugging me and planting a nice big kiss right on top of my
bald spot. Thanks, Pixel! j/k [It was a lovely greeting in great good
fun, and I appreciated it very greatly. It's not every day I get to have
Pixel in my arms.]
Dinner began without a hitch (other than the potential blackmail photos
everyone took), with all guests including all the head table were seated
and served in plenty of time. After the entree was consumed and while
coffee and dessert was being served I began the program by introducing
the head table: Alan Milner, our director and fundraising chair, and
Simone DiMatteo, his lovely companion for that evening. Alan deserved a
special commendation for attending -- he underwent surgery only three
weeks ago, and two lobes of his left lung were removed, so he was under
considerable 'discomfort' as the medicos call it; but Simone, a
wonderful lady, deserved even more commendation for making his
attendance possible. Next I introduced Larry and Marilyn Niven. Larry is
one of the Award judges, and so well known as an author to require no
further introduction. Then came Art Dula, the Heinlein Prize Trustee and
successor literary executor, and Lt. Col. Sam Kramer, resplendent in his
mess blues, whose devoted efforts at selling all the dinner tickets at
our table merited his inclusion at the head table, when Tamea Dula could
not arrive in time for dinner next to her husband. I next introduced
Jeanne and Spider Robinson. Spider is an Awards judge, but also was the
Toastmaster Guest of Honor at Torcon and one special attraction of the
dinner was the opportunity to see Spider actually wearing a tuxedo! He
looked glorious!
Oh, I forgot to tell you. Black tie was optional. It added tremendously
to the tone of the affair. Next year be ready. See if it still fits. I
suspect there will be even more guests wearing it, or the equivalent, in
Boston. What was it they said about Robert Heinlein, gentlemen, that
he'd even dress for dinner in the jungle?
I then introduced my sister, Jane Silver, who was lovely in her formal,
and who lost the bet with my wife on who would be my keeper this World
Con; and then on to introduce Gay and Joe Haldeman, who like Larry and
Pink Niven, need no further introduction to SF readers. Joe is both an
Award judge and, until Charles Brown's and my reelection, was our
Society's junior director; then introduced Stan and Joyce Schmidt. Stan,
an editor and writer, is the fourth of the Award judges able to attend;
and finally Charles Brown. our Society's founding director, and the
lovely Jenni Hall, Locus Magazine's new editor, now that Charles is
"retired." Jenni had nicely arranged to have her camera ready during the
ceremonies and took some photos of the event and presentation of the
awards that we hope to see in Locus' next issue.
Once all the head table guests were introduced I asked them all to rise
and the guests vigorously applauded them.
I then introduced Spider Robinson who began the awards ceremony with Joe
Haldeman's able assistance. Spider and Joe awarded the first Heinlein
Award to Virginia Heinlein, posthumously, for her years of devoted work
to publish and restore the body of Robert's works, and her overall
encouragement of man's quest to permanently achieve space flight and
colonization.
Eleanor Wood and Dr. Amy Baxter jointly accepted the award for Ginny,
and Amy gave a beautiful, heart warming speech about Ginny.
Next, Larry Niven and Stan Schmidt awarded a second Heinlein Award to
author Michael Flynn for the body of his work, which includes a fine
four volume series on advancement into space in the tradition set by
Robert Heinlein. Michael thanked the judges and us for the award, and
expressed his pleasure to be at the dinner.
I'm happy to note that Michael was one of the top three authors who we,
the Society, suggested to the judges' panel after their invitation to us
to do so given us back in May.
We next had an interlude, not originally scheduled, in which Fred
Moulton, one of our first Heinlein Society members, on behalf of the
Libertarian Futurist Society, awarded Robert Heinlein its 2003 Hall of
Fame award for the story "Requiem." I was honored to accept that award
on Robert's behalf. It is a beautiful plaque which I'll forward on to
the UC Santa Cruz library to go with the Hugos and Nebula and all the
other awards presented to Mr. Heinlein during his lifetime and beyond.
That makes two awards I've been honored to accept on behalf of Mr.
Heinlein, this one for "Requiem" and the other, the retroactive Hugo for
"The Man Who Sold the Moon," at MilPhilCon in 2001, so you might say
I've accounted for Mr. Harriman's awards as well.
We then started the audio visual presentation. We again showed Ginny's
copy of the broadcast of the interview by Walter Cronkite of Arthur C.
Clarke and Robert Heinlein on the occasion of man's first small steps in
July 1969, the moon landing, to the delight of the crowd. There
followed, while the disks were being changed and cued up, an interlude
in which first Mike Sheffield was introduced and recounted our past
year's blood drive efforts and urged all to attend the blood drive
scheduled for the next day. Alan Milner then discussed fund raising and
made an appeal to the audience to participate that evening in donating
funds to further the Society's good works, which he started with a check
of his own of $1,000, and introduced Art Dula to speak briefly on the
Heinlein Prize Trust which Ginny set up before her death and appointed
him trustee of. There will be public announcements this week and a
website is going up to describe the trust which will be giving awards of
about $500,000 annually to encourage space achievement! We'll give you
the URL for the website as soon as it's ready.
Art followed up on Alan's appeal for funds and promised that the Prize
Trust would match any funds raised during Torcon by The Heinlein
Society. A note: we raised a total of $3,400 during Torcon; and the
Prize Trust has matched that amount. [*But,* don't forget to pay your
next year's dues, unless you'd rather I come find you -- you won't like
it.]
Our AV Presentation then concluded with Ginny receiving Robert's
posthumous DSM at NASA, in 1988 shortly after Robert's death; and with
her reading of "This I Believe" on that occasion. Maybe there was a dry
eye in the house after that: I wouldn't know, I got a little distracted
for a moment.
We ended the dinner with thanks to all who attended and those who could
not, but would have attended if they could: Dr. Yoji Kondo, Greg Bear,
Elizabeth Moon, and John Hill and Herb Gilliland, the other award
judges; and to the late Dr. Charles Sheffield, one of the original
judges. A mob then descended upon me with checks and dollar bills of
both Canadian and US denominations.
Most of us then retired to the Heinlein Society suite at the Grand Hotel
and decompressed. I am gratified to report everyone was in bed by at
least 4 AM. They also left me one little sip of Remy Martin in the
bottle for the next morning; but all the wine bottles were empty, and
the cigars were ashes. Actually, we had a great discussion of plans for
the rest of the con and for next year. And we talked about what else:
Heinlein.
The following day, we conducted our Robert Heinlein Memorial Blood Drive.
Unofficially, seventy-four of 100 presentees gave blood. There may have
been more taken. Mike Sheffield is going over the paperwork and will
correct me, no doubt. Once again, despite our efforts to convince them
of the potential, the Blood service grossly underestimated the capacity
of a properly advertised Con blood drive -- there were three and four
hour delays from signups to donations -- and despite this, donors showed
up as they were closing and they had to go past the scheduled time by
ninety minutes to finish all who got in under the wire. Next year
they'll know better; and we plan to have an organized group of local
members ready to help them.
While this went on, just next door, in fact, at 2 PM we held our
"Heinlein: Stranger than Stranger, Four Decades After the Hugo" panel,
once again, to a packed room. Well over 120 people were present. With
Dr. James moderating, Brad Lyau, Geo Rule, Deb Houdek, Fran Van Cleave,
and Joe Major all presented a variety of views. I stood in the back of
the room for about half the panel, holding the door open for late
arrivals who kept finding spots on the floor and against the walls; the
rest of the time I was next door at the blood drive. Mike and I were
interviewed by a television crew for a local station about Mr. Heinlein,
his goals in organizing blood drives, and the society's goals in
continuing the tradition by paying it forward.
Later that afternoon, we presented, in a room four times the size of the
ordinary panel room (between 400 and 500 seats), absolutely packed, the
"Heinlein: Lost, Strayed, Misplaced, and Found Again" panel, which was,
of course, mostly about the discovery and publication of For Us, The
Living. We distributed the flyers Simon Schuster had provided; and I'll
cause a link on the Society's website so you can download your own, in
full color, to use as you wish. We ran out of flyers, including those
black-and-white copies we had printed knowing we were going to run out.
It was a wonderful panel, the most successful we've had. Spider
Robinson, Eleanor Wood, Art Dula, and Robert James participated along
with your humble obedient servant who mostly stayed out of trouble,
again.
We continued the next two days, with two more panels: "Heinlein's Take
on Law and Lawyers: The Year We Hanged All the Lawyers," on Sunday and
"Heinlein's Juveniles: Just Plain Kids, Superkids, or Sociopathic
Monsters" on Monday, once again (I'm getting as tired of typing it as
you are of reading it) to fully packed rooms.
L.N. Collier almost made it this time for the lawyers panel to join Art
Dula, Sam Kramer and me; he got as far as the plane change at Chicago,
when he received a telephone call notifying him that his younger son had
been in an accident; and he had of course to return home to see that all
was well. Fortunately, L.N. reports the boy is now okay, doing well; and
he regrets missing the panel. We all shared his fatherly concern about
his son's accident and are glad of the certain recovery to full health.
The photos L.N. posted of the Butler original Heinlein home, which was
restored last year, include photos of both L.N.'s younger son and his
daughter; and he reports they are wonderful children, bright as their
father is, and as talented.
So Art, Sam and I killed all the lawyers to the best of our ability,
without his help. Sam, now retired from the Army, is a Deputy Public
Defender in his second real life. Next year, for Boston, I'm going to
schedule a layover through Kansas City and handcuff L.N. into a chair
next to me. I'll have him properly sedated and smiling when we arrive at
NorEastCon to kill the lawyers one more time! Maybe we'll both need a
keeper to accompany us to ensure we arrive: Oz, are you reading this?
We were joined by David-Glenn Anderson, Fran Van Cleave, and Joe Major
for the Juveniles panel. David-Glenn is the manager of the Reading For
the Future list Greg Bear, Greg Benford and David Brin created a few
years back to encourage the use of SF in teaching, and teaches himself
in Utah. All our panelists were a great help on that panel.
And, oh, yes, we held a bit of a fairly successful membership drive at
Torcon. We now have THIRTY-THREE [1] more members than we had before we
left
for Torcon: unquestionably the most successful drive we have ever had at
a SF convention; and I'm still receiving sign-ups attributable to the
good work we all did in Toronto.
If you haven't joined the Society yet, now would be a good time:
See, http://www.heinleinsociety.org/
and then click "Join the Heinlein Society" and go to:
http://www.heinleinsociety.org/join.html
Everyone worked hard, and all mentioned above are commended for the
hours of effort they've put in at Torcon.
Success breeds success. Wait until next year!
David M. Silver
Secretary Treasurer
The Heinlein Society
[1] Actually, we now have FORTY-TWO new members, all joined in the past
few days.
--
David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, Lt.(jg), USN, R'td, 1907-88
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22797
From: gunner"
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 08:42:29 -0400
Subject: Re: 10 years to plan....
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
not even close to ready, but odds of one in 900,000+ are not that bad at
this point, though if we've got to rely on the world's politicians to do
anything useful if/when the odds tighten up the best advice would be "bend
over, place head between legs and...", the silly barstards would still be
arguing when the asteriod hit.
"gunner"
---------------------------
"William J. Keaton" <wjake@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:3f58f20f.0@news.sff.net...
> So, are we ready for this?
>
>
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030902/sc_nm/science_ast
> eroid_dc
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22798
From: gunner"
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 09:03:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Heinlein Right Again
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
i don't see why you have to be "adequately balanced" on this issue, (or any
for that matter) it's those little differences of opinion that make horse
races, love affairs and barroom brawls so interesting. by your comments you
are close enough to the seat of the problem to see more than most of us are
getting from the media. i don't know where you place yourself in the
political spectrum, nor does it matter, you're offerring a view of the
situation that, as above, we won't get from the talking heads on the goggle
box. thanks.
"gunner"
(by the way, i enjoyed the "gulliver's travels" reference, it was apt)
"Audrey Gifford" <agifford@surewest.net> wrote in message
news:3F3C724B.6000401@surewest.net...
> Well, uh, I have been told that I am not adequately balanced in my views
> on this....
>
> Last August about ten of us (out of the crowd of about 300) stood in
> Gray Davis's office while his flapper lied to our faces, and discovered
> he had manipulated a bunch of people who had better things to do than
> take a day off to go stage a media circus, then used that media circus
> to manipulate his political opponents into passing a budget thing he
> wanted (when HE was the one who told the state controller to stop the
> payments - (an "unfortunate interpretation of the regulations!?"). So he
> hurt thousands of handicapped kids all over the state so they would get
> out on the capitol lawn (=on the tube) and force his opponents into
> doing things.
>
> We live in Sacramento. I work with about a hundred people, many of whom
> are married to, golf with, room with, etc., the people who work in the
> governer's office. They talk!!!! The stories of Davis's arrogance and
> shameless manipulation of the electorate are endless. He thinks no more
> of the voters than he does of his opponents - voters are, after all,
> simply numbers that may be bought with the proper dose of nasty campign
> ads.
>
> So in comparison Arnie looks pretty good to me (Dianne would have been
> better) - he seems to care about kids, anyway, and I don't think he is
> as easily bought, and the leglsiature need someone who is NOT an insider
> to deal with the juvenile behavior they have been pulling. (Running away
> to avoid voting on the budget, having each other arrested for going in
> the wrong libarary, etc.) Actually, Kindergarten teacher may have been a
> good prep for him.
>
> How many of you have actually been to an assembly or senate hearing?
> Life has been so weird the last couple of years that I ended up there
> three times in the last two years. It looks and feels way too much like
> junior high.
>
> It is astonishing what happens in this town. "Experience in politics" is
> not a good thing from what I can see....and I see it way too closely
> lately.
>
> It's a zoo. But he's got to go. (And yes I know I am hopelessly naive
> and all that, but this can't be tolerated quietly in the name of
> politics as usual.)
>
> Take care,
>
> Audrey
>
>
>
>
>
> William J. Keaton wrote:
> > Oh please, tell me you and Geo and Audrey and Jim will keep us posted on
the
> > madness that is the California recall election. And any other California
> > cobbers I may have missed.
> >
> > I'll be interested to hear how you folks end up voting: butterfly
ballot,
> > electronic machine, levers, whatever.
> >
> > I'm not going to press anyone as to how they are voting, but I am
interested
> > in your views of the main candidates, especially Ah-nuld and some of the
> > political types you would see in a normal election cycle.
> >
> > Have fun all!
> >
> > WJaKe
> >
> > "Deb Houdek Rule" <debrule@dahoudek.com> wrote in message
> > news:3f3b091e.118878798@NEWS.SFF.NET...
> >
> >> Heinlein was right again. I keep thinking about the California
> >>politics in "Friday" and the California politics in, well, California.
> >>Can't decide which is the more extreme, unbelievable, circus-like
> >>portrayal.
> >>
> >>Deb (D.A. Houdek)
> >>http://www.dahoudek.com
> >>http://www.robertaheinlein.com
> >>http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
> >
> >
> >
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22799
From: gunner"
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 09:19:05 -0400
Subject: a "free lunch
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
i've got two duplicate copies (one each) of "green hills of earth" and
"menace from earth" both in battered, rough condition but with all pages and
readable. they're not worth anything as "collector's items" so if anyone
would like to have them i'll give them free, postage paid, to the first one
that answers this post.
"gunner"
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22800
From: JT
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 13:39:38 -0400
Subject: Re: DSL ?????
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 04:13:40 GMT, fader555@aol.com (Fader) wrote:
>On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 07:44:28 GMT, fader555@aol.com (Fader) wrote:
>
>Still figuring things out, thanx to all for their advice.
>
>It occurred to me that I'm going to have to redo something with IE &
>FreeAgent, since my connection will be changing, any hints?
>
>Fader
Maybe, maybe not. are you dropping AOL completely or are you going to
continue to use AOL over your new "LAN connection"?
SFF Net's information doesn't change in Free Agent. If you use Free
Agent to do email & that changes, yes, you'd need to change that
stuff.
IE is probably set to use the available connection, so that should be
OK, too.
You won't really know until you try, and SFF Net has an excellent FAQ
section on how to set things up. As far as IE settings, whoever is
providing your DSL should make sure that's OK before they leave.
JT
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22801
From: SpaceCadet
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 13:39:13 -0500
Subject: Re: DSL ?????
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
The two men (contract guys from Time Warner cable) who
"installed" my cable modem connection worked at it for about
40 minutes and then left, leaving me with no cable modem,
and no working computer. (The computer was fine when they
got there.) They told me that my computer was broken and I
should get a new one.
After they left, it took me about two minutes to figure out
that their ethernet card (which they'd left in the machine)
was bad. It then took me another hour to go get a new one,
install it and get their software running.
I will say that the Road Runner tech support was friendly
and helpful, and that customer service gave me some credit
toward my bill for the inconvenience. But I was completely
unimpressed by the installation guys.
Carol
=============
JT wrote:
> On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 04:13:40 GMT, fader555@aol.com (Fader) wrote:
>
>
>>On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 07:44:28 GMT, fader555@aol.com (Fader) wrote:
>>
>>Still figuring things out, thanx to all for their advice.
>>
>>It occurred to me that I'm going to have to redo something with IE &
>>FreeAgent, since my connection will be changing, any hints?
>>
>>Fader
>
>
> Maybe, maybe not. are you dropping AOL completely or are you going to
> continue to use AOL over your new "LAN connection"?
>
> SFF Net's information doesn't change in Free Agent. If you use Free
> Agent to do email & that changes, yes, you'd need to change that
> stuff.
>
> IE is probably set to use the available connection, so that should be
> OK, too.
>
> You won't really know until you try, and SFF Net has an excellent FAQ
> section on how to set things up. As far as IE settings, whoever is
> providing your DSL should make sure that's OK before they leave.
>
> JT
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22802
From: Filksinger"
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 17:08:08 -0700
Subject: Re: a "free lunch
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
I'll admit to being shy a copy of each.
--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
gunner wrote:
> i've got two duplicate copies (one each) of "green hills of earth"
> and "menace from earth" both in battered, rough condition but with
> all pages and readable. they're not worth anything as "collector's
> items" so if anyone would like to have them i'll give them free,
> postage paid, to the first one that answers this post.
> "gunner"
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22803
From: JT
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 21:35:51 -0400
Subject: Re: DSL ?????
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 13:39:13 -0500, SpaceCadet
<cadozo@planet-save.com> wrote:
>The two men (contract guys from Time Warner cable) who
>"installed" my cable modem connection worked at it for about
>40 minutes and then left, leaving me with no cable modem,
>and no working computer. (The computer was fine when they
>got there.) They told me that my computer was broken and I
>should get a new one.
>
When we switched from one cable company to another, I left really
simple instructions for my wife to verify that all the "installer" did
was to switch the old cablemodem to the new one, and that he didn't
actually touch anything. ;)
I'm not sure if DSL has gotten more "bulletproof" in its installation,
but there are always good techs and bad techs out there.
Given Fader's New Yawk heritage, I trust he wouldn't let them out of
the house without a working connection unless he had a few fingers as
collateral. <EG>
JT
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22804
From: Filksinger"
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 20:58:33 -0700
Subject: Re: DSL ?????
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
When they installed my DSL, I got Earthlink DSL through Covad. As an
Earthlink DSL tech, I wanted to see what it looked like from the customer's
point of view. I also wanted a new network card. So, I removed my network
card and watched as he set it up.
The installer couldn't get the network card to work. I suggested pushing it
in more firmly. Still couldn't get it to work. Since the modem, etc., was
working, I sent him on his way. I pushed the card in firmly, booted, and it
installed perfectly.
--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
SpaceCadet wrote:
> The two men (contract guys from Time Warner cable) who
> "installed" my cable modem connection worked at it for about
> 40 minutes and then left, leaving me with no cable modem,
> and no working computer. (The computer was fine when they
> got there.) They told me that my computer was broken and I
> should get a new one.
>
> After they left, it took me about two minutes to figure out
> that their ethernet card (which they'd left in the machine)
> was bad. It then took me another hour to go get a new one,
> install it and get their software running.
>
> I will say that the Road Runner tech support was friendly
> and helpful, and that customer service gave me some credit
> toward my bill for the inconvenience. But I was completely
> unimpressed by the installation guys.
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22805
From: fader555@aol.com (Fader)
Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 05:33:39 GMT
Subject: Re: DSL ?????
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 21:35:51 -0400, JT <JT@REM0VE.sff.net> wrote:
>Given Fader's New Yawk heritage, I trust he wouldn't let them out of
>the house without a working connection unless he had a few fingers as
>collateral. <EG>
>
Now,now, I wouldn't do anything like that, this is the kinder,gentler
Fader, besides according to the deal I do the in-home install, as far
as I know, he's just going to check for the signal. I haven't put the
card in yet, or done anything until I hear that it's online, since
there's been question in the past whether I can have it or not. I
wonder about interior wiring, as it's pretty old.
Fader
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22806
From: Charles Graft
Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 14:07:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Repost: Heinlein Society Torcon Report
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Dave--
A properly operating PA system is a safety requirement on
airliners. There was this accident in the late 50's or early 60's in
which a DC 6-A ( four piston engine propeller plane originally
configured for cargo but with an "aftermarket" interior installed)
crashed on Rikker's island (NYC) after takeoff. They were operating
with an inoperative PA system and the loss of several lives was blamed
on the inability of the cabin crew to communicate evacuation
instructions properly. It may sound trivial; but a lot of rules like
that were "written in blood".
--
<<Big Charlie>>
"Seen on the door to a light-wave lab: 'Do not look into laser with
remaining good eye.'"
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22807
From: David M. Silver"
Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 15:17:33 -0700
Subject: Re: Repost: Heinlein Society Torcon Report
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
In article <3F5CD386.3E858E81@aol.com>,
Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com> wrote:
> Dave--
> A properly operating PA system is a safety requirement on
> airliners. There was this accident in the late 50's or early 60's in
> which a DC 6-A ( four piston engine propeller plane originally
> configured for cargo but with an "aftermarket" interior installed)
> crashed on Rikker's island (NYC) after takeoff. They were operating
> with an inoperative PA system and the loss of several lives was blamed
> on the inability of the cabin crew to communicate evacuation
> instructions properly. It may sound trivial; but a lot of rules like
> that were "written in blood".
>
> --
> <<Big Charlie>>
>
> "Seen on the door to a light-wave lab: 'Do not look into laser with
> remaining good eye.'"
>
>
Oh, I absolutely agree, Charlie
However, I couldn't resist taking a shot at the practice now developing
among the airlines of shooting "captive audience" commercials at you via
the media designed to use to convey proper safety instructions as us.
Made me want to use the barf bag, and also causes me to ignore the
instructions -- a perfect example of negative feedback.
Where do you find the person that takes the bribe to reduce the sound
level, a la Podkayne of Mars?
--
David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, Lt.(jg), USN, R'td, 1907-88
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22808
From: gunner"
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 19:18:20 -0400
Subject: Re: a "free lunch
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
then they're yours filksinger. e-mail me at gunnera4@sover.net with a snail
mail address and i'll wrap 'em up and send them along, no worries about
postage, i'll cover it.
"gunner"
---------------------------------
"Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net> wrote in message
news:3f5bc86d.0@news.sff.net...
> I'll admit to being shy a copy of each.
>
> --
> Filksinger
> AKA David Nasset, Sr.
> Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
>
> gunner wrote:
> > i've got two duplicate copies (one each) of "green hills of earth"
> > and "menace from earth" both in battered, rough condition but with
> > all pages and readable. they're not worth anything as "collector's
> > items" so if anyone would like to have them i'll give them free,
> > postage paid, to the first one that answers this post.
> > "gunner"
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22809
From: Filksinger"
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 20:22:01 -0700
Subject: Re: a "free lunch
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Done. Thanks.
--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
gunner wrote:
> then they're yours filksinger. e-mail me at gunnera4@sover.net with a
> snail mail address and i'll wrap 'em up and send them along, no
> worries about postage, i'll cover it.
> "gunner"
> ---------------------------------
> "Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net> wrote in message
> news:3f5bc86d.0@news.sff.net...
> > I'll admit to being shy a copy of each.
> >
> > --
> > Filksinger
> > AKA David Nasset, Sr.
> > Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
> >
> > gunner wrote:
> > > i've got two duplicate copies (one each) of "green hills of
> > > earth" and "menace from earth" both in battered, rough condition
> > > but with
> > > all pages and readable. they're not worth anything as "collector's
> > > items" so if anyone would like to have them i'll give them free,
> > > postage paid, to the first one that answers this post.
> > > "gunner"
------------------------------------------------------------
============================================================
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Archive date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 15:29:48
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