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Archive of:   sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Archive desc: The Internet home for the Heinlein Forum
Archived by:  webnews@sff.net
Archive date: Sun, 08 Sep 2002 02:12:47
============================================================

Article 21487
From: William J. Keaton" 
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 01:04:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Con Jose Heinlein Dinner
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Geo Rule" <georule@civilwarstlouis.com> wrote in message
news:9s57ju01hdcqgjl2h6f32gim8f8lou6taa@4ax.com...
>
> Going to the THS dinner? Should be fun.
>
>
I certainly hope so, had a good time last year!

WJaKe



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21488
From: Lorrita Morgan" 
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 23:51:08 -0700
Subject: Re: ranting and raving in Finley
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Rosie,
IF you make sure that there is a dial up connection labeled SBC Yahoo!
(<<your city>>) in the dial up networking folder, you can uninstall Yahoo's
browser, dialer, etc. and just use Internet Explorer.  Write down your local
access number and TCP/IP settings first.  Just because my dial up connection
stayed in place doesn't mean something won't go wrong.

The uninstaller for SBC Yahoo! should be right there in START-->
Programs --> SBC Yahoo!

(for tips on  Yahoo-free Netscape use see: news.prodigy.net/
prodigynet.help.tech.yahoo-migration)

--
Later,

`rita
http://pages.prodigy.net/lorrita-m/index.html
"RPostelnek" <RPostelnek@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:3d339068.0@news.sff.net...
> I don't like the new SBC Yahoo either.  It is slower loading than Prodigy
> was.  And it makes it more difficult to do things.  I have about 5 more
> discount months and then I may switch. I suppose Prodigy got bought by SBC
> Yahoo.  They seem to have a bunch of different  systems as I recall from
> when I was loading the new disk.
>
>      Rosie
>
>
>
>
> > I liked Prodigy it was inexpensive, easy to navigate, and gave me
choices
> > about how much of its proprietary junk I had to use.  This new creature
> > started off by replacing my browser with their own version that opened a
> new
> > window every time you clicked a link, ignored POP-UP STOPPER, And
> generally
> > took over.  Do I subscribe to AOL?  (I told them several times in the
> above
> > mentioned semi-polite questions that I didn't and would not ever again
> have
> > AOL on any computer I owned by choice.)
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Later,
> >
> > `rita
> > http://pages.prodigy.net/lorrita-m/index.html
> > *frustrated, insecure, neurotic, emotional
> >
> >
>
>
>



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21489
From: Eli Hestermann 
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 07:44:14 -0400
Subject: Re: If You Like RAH, You'll Like...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

I just reread them all.  "Heretics" takes place millenia after God-Emperor Leto
II's death.  The Bene Gesserit are raising the latest Idaho ghola, lots of
folks (including the Honored Matres) are returning from the Scattering, and the
Bene Tleilaxu have figured out how to make the spice.  The book ends with the
Bene Gesserit provoking the Honored Matres into destroying all life on Rakkis
(formerly Arakkis).

I liked all of them, but for different reasons.  The second, Dune Messiah, is
my choice for weakest of the series.  I haven't read any of the new ones seet
in that universe.

"Michael P. Calligaro" wrote:

> That's interesting.  I have pretty much the same memories of the Dune books.
> First was great, and they generally became less and less memorable until
> Chapterhouse.  I also, for the life of me, can't remember a single thing
> about the fifth book.
>
> bytor
>
> "Deb Houdek Rule" <debrule@dahoudek.com> wrote in message
> news:3d33310c.3100822@NEWS.SFF.NET...
> >   I just reread a part of the Dune series. First book, as ever,
> > splendid. An ever-growing sense of dismay as I read the others. I got
> > to book 5 "Heretics of Dune" and read the first paragraph and just
> > couldn't go on. I _know_ I've read it before but absolutely no memory
> > comes up of what it was about. "Chapterhouse Dune", OTOH, I recall
> > thinking went a long ways toward recapturing the flavor of the first
> > book. Haven't touched the new one.

--
Eli V. Hestermann
Eli_Hestermann@dfci.harvard.edu
"Vita brevis est, ars longa."  -Seneca



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21490
From: Charles Graft 
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 12:14:20 -0500
Subject: Re: 1776 DVD
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

All--
     I'm glad Geo gave the review here; I showed the movie to my wife
for the first time starting on the July 4th weekend.  But that was the
"expanded" laserdisc version.  The DVD version is in my cart at Amazon.
(I tend to accumulate items there until I get a fairly good sized order
then I send it in.)  (I usually watch the movie around July 4th each
year.)

     Patricia was not unfamiliar with the work, though.  She has theater
in her background and was familiar with theater versions.  She also very
much liked the movie.

--
<<Big Charlie>>

"Democracy is a form of worship.  It is the worship of jackals by
jackasses." --  H. L. Menken



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21491
From: Voxwoman 
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 13:16:30 -0400
Subject: Re: ranting and raving in Finley
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum



Jai Johnson-Pickett wrote:

> On Sat, 13 Jul 2002 00:22:51 -0700, "Lorrita Morgan"
> <lorrita-m@prodigy.net> wrote:
> 
> 
>>Put a few white paper towels under them and use them to show your husband
>>and children why you don'y put metal in the microwave.  <snip>
>>
>>They also work great in the cherry tree for scaring off birds....
>>
> 
> A friend of mine who used to manage an Egghead's software store
> (before they went TU) gave a bunch of useless disks to his daughter
> who made a quite lovely menorah out of them (shiny sides out) for the
> temple's annual "Build a Menorah" contest.  She won a $1K scholarship
> to summer camp.
> 
> I would imagine someone far more creative than I could make some other
> holiday doodad.  They really do catch the light nicely.


There was some horrid SciFi movie a while back where people were living 
on a "trash dump" planet, and had decorated their hovels with CDs (one 
of the few redeeming features of the film, AIR)
-Wendy of NJ


> 


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21492
From: Charles Graft 
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 12:18:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Federal Marriage Amendment
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


--------------1067929813321F3C0849DA02
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi, All --

     There is one issue here that has not been touched.  Anytime the
government (givernment) mandates any company do anything, the reaction
of far too many people is that it is free.  I am disappointed that (some
of) those on this newsgroup seem to have fallen into the same trap.

 It does not matter whether the government has come directly after me
under threat of arms (try not paying your so-called "fair" share of
taxes and ignoring the demands that you do and see how long it is before
there are armed persons at your doorstep there to haul you off), in
order to pay for you pet "good"; or whether they "mandate" someone else
take the costs.

     TANSTAAFL, everyone.  Either an insurance company takes in enough
in premiums to pay their claims and overhead or they go down the tubes.
There are no other alternatives.  Should they be "required" to take on
other people the costs have to come out somewhere.  I'm sure the
companies would not mind covering only the wage earner,  but market
demand is that most employees have families and if your insurance
company or employer does not offer this coverage you as a worker may
well be inclined to go elsewhere.  (i. e.; if you are an insurance
company you will lose business hand over fist.)  Expanding "the
traditional family" to other definitions under mandate runs up the cost
not to the insurance company, which will have to get these costs from
somewhere, but to their policyholders.  If you expand it to a group that
has higher than normal insurance claims, it is even worse.

     This is not to defend the effect that insurance companies have had
on health care, an issue that I deal with frequently as my wife works in
the industry.  This is to point out that there is an ostrich effect at
work here; if you hide the costs they will disappear.

--
<<Big Charlie>>

"Democracy is a form of worship.  It is the worship of jackals by
jackasses." --  H. L. Menken


--------------1067929813321F3C0849DA02
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
Hi, All --
<p>     There is one issue here that has not been touched. 
Anytime the government (givernment) mandates any company do anything, the
reaction of far too many people is that it is free.  I am disappointed
that (some of) those on this newsgroup seem to have fallen into the same
trap.
<p> It does not matter whether the government has come directly after
me under threat of arms (try not paying your so-called "fair" share of
taxes and ignoring the demands that you do and see how long it is before
there are armed persons at your doorstep there to haul you off), in order
to pay for you pet "good"; or whether they "mandate" someone else take
the costs.
<p>     TANSTAAFL, everyone.  Either an insurance
company takes in enough in premiums to pay their claims <b><i>and overhead</i></b>
or they go down the tubes.  There are no other alternatives. 
Should they be "required" to take on other people the costs have to come
out somewhere.  I'm sure the companies would not mind covering only
the wage earner,  but market demand is that most employees have families
and if your insurance company or employer does not offer this coverage
you as a worker may well be inclined to go elsewhere.  (i. e.; if
you are an insurance company you will lose business hand over fist.) 
Expanding "the traditional family" to other definitions under mandate runs
up the cost not to the insurance company, which will have to get these
costs from somewhere, but to their policyholders.  If you expand it
to a group that has higher than normal insurance claims, it is even worse.
<p>     This is not to defend the effect that insurance
companies have had on health care, an issue that I deal with frequently
as my wife works in the industry.  This is to point out that there
is an ostrich effect at work here; if you hide the costs they will disappear.
<p>--
<br><<Big Charlie>>
<p>"Democracy is a form of worship.  It is the worship of jackals
by jackasses." --  H. L. Menken
<br> </html>

--------------1067929813321F3C0849DA02--


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21493
From: Voxwoman 
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 13:21:21 -0400
Subject: Re: If You Like RAH, You'll Like...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum



Eli Hestermann wrote:

> I just reread them all.  "Heretics" takes place millenia after God-Emperor Leto
> II's death.  The Bene Gesserit are raising the latest Idaho ghola, lots of
> folks (including the Honored Matres) are returning from the Scattering, and the
> Bene Tleilaxu have figured out how to make the spice.  The book ends with the
> Bene Gesserit provoking the Honored Matres into destroying all life on Rakkis
> (formerly Arakkis).
> 
> I liked all of them, but for different reasons.  The second, Dune Messiah, is
> my choice for weakest of the series.  I haven't read any of the new ones seet
> in that universe.


That's the one that halted my slog through the Dune series (couldn't get 
past the opening scene of book 2, actually).
-Wendy of NJ


> 
> "Michael P. Calligaro" wrote:
> 
> 
>>That's interesting.  I have pretty much the same memories of the Dune books.
>>First was great, and they generally became less and less memorable until
>>Chapterhouse.  I also, for the life of me, can't remember a single thing
>>about the fifth book.
>>
>>bytor
>>
>>"Deb Houdek Rule" <debrule@dahoudek.com> wrote in message
>>news:3d33310c.3100822@NEWS.SFF.NET...
>>
>>>  I just reread a part of the Dune series. First book, as ever,
>>>splendid. An ever-growing sense of dismay as I read the others. I got
>>>to book 5 "Heretics of Dune" and read the first paragraph and just
>>>couldn't go on. I _know_ I've read it before but absolutely no memory
>>>comes up of what it was about. "Chapterhouse Dune", OTOH, I recall
>>>thinking went a long ways toward recapturing the flavor of the first
>>>book. Haven't touched the new one.
>>>
> 
> --
> Eli V. Hestermann
> Eli_Hestermann@dfci.harvard.edu
> "Vita brevis est, ars longa."  -Seneca
> 
> 
> 


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21494
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 00:30:56 GMT
Subject: Re: ranting and raving in Finley
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Sun, 14 Jul 2002 22:19:11 -0500, "RPostelnek"
<RPostelnek@prodigy.net> wrote:
>I don't like the new SBC Yahoo either.  It is slower loading than Prodigy
>was.  And it makes it more difficult to do things.  I have about 5 more
>discount months and then I may switch. I suppose Prodigy got bought by SBC
>Yahoo.  They seem to have a bunch of different  systems as I recall from
>when I was loading the new disk.
>
>     Rosie
>
Hi Rosie!  How's my favorite Combat Librarian doing?

JT

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21495
From: Lorrita Morgan" 
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 18:14:58 -0700
Subject: Re: If You Like RAH, You'll Like...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

<georule@civilwarstlouis.com> wrote in message
news:3d333f91.0@news.sff.net...
> For 7 years I've been trying to get my wife  --who is a film school grad
> and Viking scholar-- to read Harrison's "The Technicolor Time Machine"

Nasty of you to recommend something not in my local library AND out of
print!  I am thinking of seeing IF the critics are right and scratching my
alternate history "Jones" with The Hammer and the Cross or West of Eden.  I
might even see if they're wrong and try Stars and Stripes Forever since it
seems Harry Turtledove (and my local library) takes forever to get his next
book in my hands.
--
Later,

`rita
http://pages.prodigy.net/lorrita-m/index.html



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21496
From: Kristina Forsyth" 
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 21:37:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Federal Marriage Amendment
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Sorry, but I'm only working from your post, and not whatever you were
responding to.  Are you saying that people who advocate insurance benefits
for non-traditional family members are looking for a free ride?

And are you also suggesting that these non-traditional families have higher
than normal insurance claims?

Because I have answers for both of these assertions, but I don't want to set
up a straw man and knock him down if that's not what you're saying.  (Also,
if that's not what you're saying, perhaps you could restate your position,
because that's what I got.)

T

"Charles Graft" <chasgraft@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3D345570.882A54D0@aol.com...
> Hi, All --
>
>
>      TANSTAAFL, everyone.  Either an insurance company takes in enough
> in premiums to pay their claims and overhead or they go down the tubes.
> There are no other alternatives.  Should they be "required" to take on
> other people the costs have to come out somewhere.  I'm sure the
> companies would not mind covering only the wage earner,  but market
> demand is that most employees have families and if your insurance
> company or employer does not offer this coverage you as a worker may
> well be inclined to go elsewhere.  (i. e.; if you are an insurance
> company you will lose business hand over fist.)  Expanding "the
> traditional family" to other definitions under mandate runs up the cost
> not to the insurance company, which will have to get these costs from
> somewhere, but to their policyholders.  If you expand it to a group that
> has higher than normal insurance claims, it is even worse.
>
>
>



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21497
From: Michael P. Calligaro" 
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 21:20:54 -0700
Subject: Re: Federal Marriage Amendment
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_010E_01C22D0E.AB866960
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I'm not following you, BC.  The proposed amendment says that no law in =
this country is allowed to recognize anything but 1 man + 1 woman as a =
marriage.  It says that no state is allowed to recognize other groups.  =
Why should the federal government be given that power? =20

bytor

  "Charles Graft" <chasgraft@aol.com> wrote in message =
news:3D345570.882A54D0@aol.com...
  Hi, All --=20
       There is one issue here that has not been touched.  Anytime the =
government (givernment) mandates any company do anything, the reaction =
of far too many people is that it is free.  I am disappointed that (some =
of) those on this newsgroup seem to have fallen into the same trap.=20


------=_NextPart_000_010E_01C22D0E.AB866960
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2716.2200" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I'm not following you, BC.  The =
proposed=20
amendment says that no law in this country is allowed to recognize =
anything but=20
1 man + 1 woman as a marriage.  It says that no state is allowed to =

recognize other groups.  Why should the federal government be given =
that=20
power?  </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>bytor</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV>"Charles Graft" <<A=20
  href=3D"mailto:chasgraft@aol.com">chasgraft@aol.com</A>> wrote in =
message <A=20
  =
href=3D"news:3D345570.882A54D0@aol.com">news:3D345570.882A54D0@aol.com</A=
>...</DIV>Hi,=20
  All --=20
  <P>     There is one issue here that has not been=20
  touched.  Anytime the government (givernment) mandates any =
company do=20
  anything, the reaction of far too many people is that it is =
free.  I am=20
  disappointed that (some of) those on this newsgroup seem to have =
fallen into=20
  the same trap. </P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_010E_01C22D0E.AB866960--


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21498
From: William J. Keaton" 
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 01:17:44 -0400
Subject: Re: If You Like RAH, You'll Like...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Lorrita Morgan" <lorrita-m@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:3d32a1f4.0@news.sff.net...
> One of my guilty pleasures is The Stainless Steel Rat series by Harry
> Harrison.  After reading a couple on fly this past week, I think W. W.
Smith
> and Jim DiGriz could be buddies.  (Harrison's other stuff ain't bad
either.
> MAKE ROOM, MAKE ROOM is a classic most of you will recognize.)
>

My guilty pleasure has always been SF of the funny sort, Slippery Jim has
been one of my faves for many years. I've also read some really awful SF
that was really funny, like the Satellite Night News series, stuff like Hit
or Myth by Bob Asprin and a few things I highly recommend, such as Walter
Jon Williams Ten Points For Style. (I have inflicted myself upon him at the
last 3 WorldCons, urging him to write more stories in that series)

And as for Harry Harrison's other work, let me just say:

Bill, The Galactic Hero

WJaKe



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21499
From: Lorrita Morgan" 
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 23:49:14 -0700
Subject: Re: If You Like RAH, You'll Like...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Bill is great.

But for pure cotton candy, rot your brain humor you've got to try the "News
from the Edge" series by Mark Sumner.  There are only three of these "The
Cat Who... meets X-Files" books each about 200 pages long.  The "Weekly
World News" was never like this.

--
Later,

`rita
http://pages.prodigy.net/lorrita-m/index.html
"William J. Keaton" <wjake@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:3d34fd48.0@news.sff.net...
> My guilty pleasure has always been SF of the funny sort, Slippery Jim has
> been one of my faves for many years. I've also read some really awful SF
> that was really funny, like the Satellite Night News series, stuff like
Hit
> or Myth by Bob Asprin and a few things I highly recommend, such as Walter
> Jon Williams Ten Points For Style. (I have inflicted myself upon him at
the
> last 3 WorldCons, urging him to write more stories in that series)
>
> And as for Harry Harrison's other work, let me just say:
>
> Bill, The Galactic Hero
>
> WJaKe
>
>



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21500
From: Eli Hestermann 
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 07:45:17 -0400
Subject: Re: If You Like RAH, You'll Like...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

"William J. Keaton" wrote:

> My guilty pleasure has always been SF of the funny sort

Do you like Keith Laumer?  Just mentioning the name makes me want to go dig
out and reread some Retief books.

--
Eli V. Hestermann
Eli_Hestermann@dfci.harvard.edu
"Vita brevis est, ars longa."  -Seneca



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21501
From: fader555@aol.com (Fader)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 11:57:26 GMT
Subject: Re: If You Like RAH, You'll Like...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Tue, 16 Jul 2002 07:44:14 -0400, Eli Hestermann
<Eli_Hestermann@dfci.harvard.edu> wrote:

>  I haven't read any of the new ones seet
>in that universe.
>
I've just finished the last of the 3 new "Dune" books, They're not bad
but not that great either. There's a glaring (IMHO) mistake in the
first of the series, that if it were so, I don't see how it could be &
not already be known.(spoiler by request) Mostly it's just backstory
stuff, & interesting for that.

As for the first series, the first 3 always seemed to be the story,
the 4th was (again MHO) way out there(drugs,maybe {1500?yrs later & a
sandworm/human hybrid/meld} I only wish I knew his dealer) & the last
two for the money/continue the weirdness.

Fader

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21502
From: Voxwoman 
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 08:15:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Federal Marriage Amendment
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

The costs aren't hidden... it's the way the insurance companies are set 
up. For example, "family" coverage, at my company, includes spouse and 
all children, whether it's one child or 10 children AT THE SAME RATE. 
Who thought that up? The insurance companies. The employer has extended 
that definition (in many cases) to include same-sex partners. There is 
no coverage for heterosexual cohabitation without marriage (I think a 
case could be made over that since that's discriminatory against 
heterosexuals). And a lot of companies are already offering these 
benefits - so these extra costs are already being paid for.
-Wendy of NJ

Charles Graft wrote:

> Hi, All --
> 
>      There is one issue here that has not been touched.  Anytime the 
> government (givernment) mandates any company do anything, the reaction 
> of far too many people is that it is free.  I am disappointed that (some 
> of) those on this newsgroup seem to have fallen into the same trap.
> 
>  It does not matter whether the government has come directly after me 
> under threat of arms (try not paying your so-called "fair" share of 
> taxes and ignoring the demands that you do and see how long it is before 
> there are armed persons at your doorstep there to haul you off), in 
> order to pay for you pet "good"; or whether they "mandate" someone else 
> take the costs.
> 
>      TANSTAAFL, everyone.  Either an insurance company takes in enough 
> in premiums to pay their claims and overhead or they go down the tubes.  
> There are no other alternatives.  Should they be "required" to take on 
> other people the costs have to come out somewhere.  I'm sure the 
> companies would not mind covering only the wage earner,  but market 
> demand is that most employees have families and if your insurance 
> company or employer does not offer this coverage you as a worker may 
> well be inclined to go elsewhere.  (i. e.; if you are an insurance 
> company you will lose business hand over fist.)  Expanding "the 
> traditional family" to other definitions under mandate runs up the cost 
> not to the insurance company, which will have to get these costs from 
> somewhere, but to their policyholders.  If you expand it to a group that 
> has higher than normal insurance claims, it is even worse.
> 
>      This is not to defend the effect that insurance companies have had 
> on health care, an issue that I deal with frequently as my wife works in 
> the industry.  This is to point out that there is an ostrich effect at 
> work here; if you hide the costs they will disappear.
> 
> -- 
> <<Big Charlie>>
> 
> "Democracy is a form of worship.  It is the worship of jackals by 
> jackasses." --  H. L. Menken
>  
> 


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21503
From: David Silver 
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 05:56:27 -0700
Subject: Re: Federal Marriage Amendment
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Charles Graft wrote:

> Hi, All --
> 
>      There is one issue here that has not been touched.  Anytime the 
> government (givernment) mandates any company do anything, the reaction 
> of far too many people is that it is free.  I am disappointed that (some 
> of) those on this newsgroup seem to have fallen into the same trap.
> 
>  It does not matter whether the government has come directly after me 
> under threat of arms (try not paying your so-called "fair" share of 
> taxes and ignoring the demands that you do and see how long it is before 
> there are armed persons at your doorstep there to haul you off), in 
> order to pay for you pet "good"; or whether they "mandate" someone else 
> take the costs.
> 
>      TANSTAAFL, everyone.  Either an insurance company takes in enough 
> in premiums to pay their claims and overhead or they go down the tubes.  
> There are no other alternatives.

I think some might feel that an oversimplification of what the real 
issue are, Charlie.

I had an economics professor who used to chuckle when that argument was 
presented in the late 1960s and early 1970s by his students. He'd say: 
"If you think it so, go look at all the newly-built high rises along 
Wilshire Boulevard and in West L.A. They're financed by undistributed 
profits of insurance companies, each and every one of them. When they 
run out of people and businesses to put in those office buildings, and 
cease making them, then it will be interesting to see where the industry 
nexts invests its ill-gotten wealth."

Cheers!

David


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21504
From: Gordon G. Sollars 
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 09:28:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Federal Marriage Amendment
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3D35697B.3050501@verizon.net>, David Silver writes...
....
> I had an economics professor who used to chuckle when that argument was 
> presented in the late 1960s and early 1970s by his students. He'd say: 
> "If you think it so, go look at all the newly-built high rises along 
> Wilshire Boulevard and in West L.A. They're financed by undistributed 
> profits of insurance companies, each and every one of them. When they 
> run out of people and businesses to put in those office buildings, and 
> cease making them, then it will be interesting to see where the industry 
> nexts invests its ill-gotten wealth."

Did your econ prof mention that state laws require insurance companies to 
have minimum reserves?  Economic theory tells us that when laws requiring 
such minimums set them at an amount above the market level, we get 
surpluses (when below, shortages).  Insurance companies have to invest 
those surpluses somewhere.

-- 
Gordon Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21505
From: David Silver 
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 08:37:41 -0700
Subject: Re: Federal Marriage Amendment
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Gordon G. Sollars wrote:

> In article <3D35697B.3050501@verizon.net>, David Silver writes...
> ...
> 
>>I had an economics professor who used to chuckle when that argument was 
>>presented in the late 1960s and early 1970s by his students. He'd say: 
>>"If you think it so, go look at all the newly-built high rises along 
>>Wilshire Boulevard and in West L.A. They're financed by undistributed 
>>profits of insurance companies, each and every one of them. When they 
>>run out of people and businesses to put in those office buildings, and 
>>cease making them, then it will be interesting to see where the industry 
>>nexts invests its ill-gotten wealth."
>>
> 
> Did your econ prof mention that state laws require insurance companies to 
> have minimum reserves?  Economic theory tells us that when laws requiring 
> such minimums set them at an amount above the market level, we get 
> surpluses (when below, shortages).  Insurance companies have to invest 
> those surpluses somewhere.
> 
> 

He mentioned it all, Gordon, including the very effective lobbies 
insurance companies maintain to protect themselves. Insurance company 
money buys a lot out here in California; but, fortunately, every once in 
a while, the well-bought must flee to Hawaii, as our last really dumb 
Insurance Commissioner did, bless his black soul. That lets the other 
politician deep into the insurance trough forget prosecuting him until 
the heat dies down. ;-)

David


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21506
From: debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 21:05:17 GMT
Subject: Re: If You Like RAH, You'll Like...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


>Nasty of you to recommend something not in my local library AND out of
>print! 

  http://www.abebooks.com has lots of copies. As cheap as $2.

  I started the book about three times but it just didn't hold me
enough to get past the first chapter. Took a while to get past the
beginning of Dune too so maybe better stuff awaits. 


Deb  (D.A. Houdek) 
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21507
From: Ed Johnson 
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 23:10:35 -0400
Subject: Re: If You Like RAH, You'll Like...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

`rita:   I liked Harrison's Deathworld series, too.

Ed J

On Mon, 15 Jul 2002 03:20:17 -0700, "Lorrita Morgan"
<lorrita-m@prodigy.net> wrote:

>One of my guilty pleasures is The Stainless Steel Rat series by Harry
>Harrison.  After reading a couple on fly this past week, I think W. W. Smith
>and Jim DiGriz could be buddies.  (Harrison's other stuff ain't bad either.
>MAKE ROOM, MAKE ROOM is a classic most of you will recognize.)


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21508
From: Ed Johnson 
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 23:13:43 -0400
Subject: Re: If You Like RAH, You'll Like...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Jake:  I laughed quite often upon my first read of Eric F. Russell's
"Wasp".  He has written some (IMHO) humorous stuff (and some real
stinkeroo's, as well.)
Keith Laumer is good for sarcastic humor.
Ed J

On Wed, 17 Jul 2002 01:17:44 -0400, "William J. Keaton"
<wjake@prodigy.net> wrote:

>
>"Lorrita Morgan" <lorrita-m@prodigy.net> wrote in message
>news:3d32a1f4.0@news.sff.net...
>> One of my guilty pleasures is The Stainless Steel Rat series by Harry
>> Harrison.  After reading a couple on fly this past week, I think W. W.
>Smith
>> and Jim DiGriz could be buddies.  (Harrison's other stuff ain't bad
>either.
>> MAKE ROOM, MAKE ROOM is a classic most of you will recognize.)
>>
>
>My guilty pleasure has always been SF of the funny sort, Slippery Jim has
>been one of my faves for many years. I've also read some really awful SF
>that was really funny, like the Satellite Night News series, stuff like Hit
>or Myth by Bob Asprin and a few things I highly recommend, such as Walter
>Jon Williams Ten Points For Style. (I have inflicted myself upon him at the
>last 3 WorldCons, urging him to write more stories in that series)
>
>And as for Harry Harrison's other work, let me just say:
>
>Bill, The Galactic Hero
>
>WJaKe
>


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21509
From: Lorrita Morgan" 
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 21:22:38 -0700
Subject: They learn quick
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Robot on the run
By Dave Higgens, London
June 20 2002
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/06/20/1023864460978.html


--
Later,

`rita
http://pages.prodigy.net/lorrita-m/index.html




------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21510
From: William J. Keaton" 
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 01:24:35 -0400
Subject: Re: If You Like RAH, You'll Like...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Eli Hestermann" <Eli_Hestermann@dfci.harvard.edu> wrote in message
news:3D3558CC.7DD3DF52@dfci.harvard.edu...
> "William J. Keaton" wrote:
>
> > My guilty pleasure has always been SF of the funny sort
>
> Do you like Keith Laumer?

Yes, that was the other name I was trying to remember last night!

WJaKe



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21511
From: kevin mcgillicuddy" 
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 04:55:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Federal Marriage Amendment
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"David Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:3D358F45.40101@verizon.net...
> Gordon G. Sollars wrote:
>
> > In article <3D35697B.3050501@verizon.net>, David Silver writes...
> > ...
> >
> >>I had an economics professor who used to chuckle when that argument was
> >>presented in the late 1960s and early 1970s by his students. He'd say:
> >>"If you think it so, go look at all the newly-built high rises along
> >>Wilshire Boulevard and in West L.A. They're financed by undistributed
> >>profits of insurance companies, each and every one of them. When they
> >>run out of people and businesses to put in those office buildings, and
> >>cease making them, then it will be interesting to see where the industry
> >>nexts invests its ill-gotten wealth."
> >>
> >
> > Did your econ prof mention that state laws require insurance companies
to
> > have minimum reserves?  Economic theory tells us that when laws
requiring
> > such minimums set them at an amount above the market level, we get
> > surpluses (when below, shortages).  Insurance companies have to invest
> > those surpluses somewhere.
> >
> >
>
> He mentioned it all, Gordon, including the very effective lobbies
> insurance companies maintain to protect themselves. Insurance company
> money buys a lot out here in California; but, fortunately, every once in
> a while, the well-bought must flee to Hawaii, as our last really dumb
> Insurance Commissioner did, bless his black soul. That lets the other
> politician deep into the insurance trough forget prosecuting him until
> the heat dies down. ;-)
>
> David
>
My company's biggest source of revenue right now, by far, is handling claims
of bankrupt insurance companies.  There have been a rash of them recently (a
few big ones out of California, but they're all over).  State regulators
want to bring down a number of other carriers, but they don't have the
resources to do so at present - it will happen eventually.  The industry's
in a pretty sorry state at present.

McKevin



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21512
From: Lorrita Morgan" 
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 23:50:50 -0700
Subject: Review writing
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Just a question or two.

Do you want us, the reviewers, to give the history/language/culture
lesson(s) that apply to our story?  Or ignore them and hope that these
readers will be savvy enough to know that the world has changed since the
story was written?

My partner and I were talking about language drift today.  In "_We Also Walk
Dogs," I caught several instances where the average college age person would
not understand the narrative because either the word or its referent have
changed since 1941.  My parents and I enjoyed the same books with very few
problems in understanding.  My children and I had some problems.  My
grandson will need to study to be able to understand.

There are socio-cultural things in "Dogs" also that may need explanation.
(I got back here without the book.  So examples will have to come later.)

I'm cogitating.  My "caustic" comments are forthcoming.
--
Later,

`rita
http://pages.prodigy.net/lorrita-m/index.html



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21513
From: Charles Graft 
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 13:46:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Federal Marriage Amendment
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Kristina--

     Yes, I am touching on a peripheral issue.

     Yes, I am saying that stretching the definition of "family"
involves additional costs.  Yes, in a group family the same charge is
made for a husband and wife with several children.  But in a group
situation, your underwriting costs are based on a family of two adults
and 2.3 children (or whatever the current statistic is).  So if you take
two non-married people, who are each paying single rates, and throw the
together into a family rate, you have less income for the same costs.
Especially is you get into a situation of marriages (or unions) of
convenience to get otherwise unqualified into your health insurance
pool.  Yes, these people are looking for a free ride.

     Yes, my major point is that mandates on coverage of birth control
pills, Xenical or Viagara, or (for example) or covering otherwise
uncovered diseases (HIV), adds to costs.

     While there may be some evidence that lifestyle choices drastically
increase health care costs, that is not my issue here.  My issue is that
increasing the number of people eligible has costs.  My (hypothetical)
example.  I am divorced but with one child for whom I provide medical
coverage.  Joanie, (the decorative one who next door to me who wears the
spaghetti-strap mini-bikini top while mowing the lawn,) would like to be
added to my family coverage by simply claiming a family relationship --
which doesn't cost anybody anything, right?  Joanie has a fine figure
with lots of cleavage, but has asthma, diabetes, lupus, high blood
pressure, high cholesterol, smokes, is HIV positive, etc.. . .  Free
ride?
     Is family coverage limited to just two adults?  Why not an extended
family?
     "Everybody here at this company is like family, so we should only
have to buy one family coverage. . ."
--
<<Big Charlie>>

"Democracy is a form of worship.  It is the worship of jackals by
jackasses." --  H. L. Menken



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21514
From: Charles Graft 
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 13:48:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Federal Marriage Amendment
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


--------------8CB39ECC7C1C119B1603719D
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

"Michael P. Calligaro" wrote:

> I'm not following you, BC.  The proposed amendment says that no law in
> this country is allowed to recognize anything but 1 man + 1 woman as a
> marriage.  It says that no state is allowed to recognize other
> groups.  Why should the federal government be given that power? bytor

Bytor--

     No, personally I don't think this is or should be a federal issue.
But as to why the federal government claims that power, there is a "full
faith and credit" constitutional issue involved, and the case is easily
made that congress has the power to regulate what "full faith and
credit" means.

--
<<Big Charlie>>

"Democracy is a form of worship.  It is the worship of jackals by
jackasses." --  H. L. Menken


--------------8CB39ECC7C1C119B1603719D
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
"Michael P. Calligaro" wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><style></style>
<font face="Arial"><font size=-1>I'm
not following you, BC.  The proposed amendment says that no law in
this country is allowed to recognize anything but 1 man + 1 woman as a
marriage.  It says that no state is allowed to recognize other groups. 
Why should the federal government be given that power?</font></font> <font face="Arial"><font size=-1>bytor</font></font></blockquote>

<p><br>Bytor--
<p>     No, personally I don't think this is or should
be a federal issue.  But as to why the federal government claims that
power, there is a "full faith and credit" constitutional issue involved,
and the case is easily made that congress has the power to regulate what
"full faith and credit" means.
<p>--
<br><<Big Charlie>>
<p>"Democracy is a form of worship.  It is the worship of jackals
by jackasses." --  H. L. Menken
<br> 
</body>
</html>

--------------8CB39ECC7C1C119B1603719D--


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21515
From: Voxwoman 
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 15:07:58 -0400
Subject: from the babylon5 newsgroup...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

This was posted today on another NG, and I thought you'd like to see it...
-Wendy of NJ
I came across this in an interview of Robert Heinlein by Alfred
Bester.  It was first published in Publishers Weekly in 1973, and
I got it from the book Redemolished, which is a collection of
short stories, essays and interviews by Bester.

I can't say I know much of either of their philosophies.
But I like RH's translation for patriotism.  Might even take
it up as a sig.

All typos are mined.

=====

"Robert, I have to bring up a very sensitive issue.  You're
often accused of being a hard-hat facist in your writing,
justifying and sympathizing with villainous hawk types."

"Alfie, have you ever seen a villain in any of my stories?  I don't
really believe in villains.  No man is a villain unto himself.
Once or twice I've used cardboard villains, but that's all.
One thing runs all through my stories.  I believe in freedom.
I believe in a man's total responsibility for his own acts.  I'm
downright reactionary about that.

" Patriotism is a nice long polysyllabic abstract word of Latin
derivation, which translates into Anglo-Saxon as Women and
Children First.  And every culture that has ever lasted is based
on Women and Children First or it doesn't last very long.  But
there's no way to force patriotism on anyone.  Passing a law
will not create it, nor can we buy it by appropriating billions
of dollars."

At this point he actually began to break down.  PW [Publishers
Weekly I assume] could not endure the sight of a colleague on
the verge of tears, so I changed the subject.  "Forget it, Robert.
It's the politicians who've given patriotism a bad name.  Let's
get back to science fiction.  What's your definition of it?"

===


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21516
From: Dee" 
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 15:13:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Federal Marriage Amendment
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

"Charles Graft" <chasgraft@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3D385E89.EFA50C5D@aol.com...

<snip>
> Especially is you get into a situation of marriages (or unions) of
> convenience to get otherwise unqualified into your health insurance
> pool.  Yes, these people are looking for a free ride.
<snip>

BC--

    I understand your point.  But if we had such a thing as a "contractual
family" as I have suggested in an earlier post, then all "family rights"
could be tied to the contractual obligations.  You could not insure as a
family member someone for whom you did not take on an obligation.  If you
limited your contract to 5 years, the SS, insurance, etc. would only cover
for the same period.  No free ride, because you have to accept obligations
first, yourself.
    Married couples w/o children are subsidizing the ones w/ children, those
w/fewer children are subsidizing those w/ many.  If that is not unfair, then
why would teh proposed situation be unfair?  Just because it's traditional,
doesn't mean it is not a free ride.  Of course, traditional values seem to
say that people with children should expect a free ride in everything, and
the childless should be grateful for paying the fare.  <tongue only partly
in cheek>
    Anyway, why shouldn't the insurance companies set rate per person
covered, instead of per employee?  They have the freedon to change the
pricing structure at any time.

--Dee



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21517
From: Voxwoman 
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 16:12:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Federal Marriage Amendment
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum



Charles Graft wrote:

> Kristina--
> 
>      Yes, I am touching on a peripheral issue.
> 
>      Yes, I am saying that stretching the definition of "family"
> involves additional costs.  Yes, in a group family the same charge is
> made for a husband and wife with several children.  But in a group
> situation, your underwriting costs are based on a family of two adults
> and 2.3 children (or whatever the current statistic is).  So if you take
> two non-married people, who are each paying single rates, and throw the
> together into a family rate, you have less income for the same costs.
> Especially is you get into a situation of marriages (or unions) of
> convenience to get otherwise unqualified into your health insurance
> pool.  Yes, these people are looking for a free ride.
> 
>      Yes, my major point is that mandates on coverage of birth control
> pills, Xenical or Viagara, or (for example) or covering otherwise
> uncovered diseases (HIV), adds to costs.


I always found it ironic that my medical insurance would shell out more 
than 10 grand for me to have a baby, but not 120 dollars for me to get 
the pill (that would have been their part of it after my 15 dollar 
co-pay). Although, if I was taking that same exact pill to fix a 
"hormone imbalance" they would have covered it. And they would have paid 
for an IUD, but not condoms, or sterilization, but not a diaphragm.


> 
>      While there may be some evidence that lifestyle choices drastically
> increase health care costs, that is not my issue here.  My issue is that
> increasing the number of people eligible has costs.  My (hypothetical)
> example.  I am divorced but with one child for whom I provide medical
> coverage.  Joanie, (the decorative one who next door to me who wears the
> spaghetti-strap mini-bikini top while mowing the lawn,) would like to be
> added to my family coverage by simply claiming a family relationship --
> which doesn't cost anybody anything, right?  Joanie has a fine figure
> with lots of cleavage, but has asthma, diabetes, lupus, high blood
> pressure, high cholesterol, smokes, is HIV positive, etc.. . .  Free
> ride?
>      Is family coverage limited to just two adults?  Why not an extended
> family?


AT&T had insurance just like that, in the old days. (How do I know? It 
was in a benefits booklet that discussed legacy coverage for the 
"old-timers") You were covered. Your spouse was covered. Your children 
were covered, your *parents* and *grandchildren* and *unmarried 
siblings* were also covered. (and your spouses' parents, too, IIRC) No 
wonder these jobs were so coveted back then...


>      "Everybody here at this company is like family, so we should only
> have to buy one family coverage. . ."
> --
> <<Big Charlie>>
> 
> "Democracy is a form of worship.  It is the worship of jackals by
> jackasses." --  H. L. Menken
> 
> 
> 


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21518
From: Voxwoman 
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 20:36:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Federal Marriage Amendment
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum



Dee wrote:

> "Charles Graft" <chasgraft@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:3D385E89.EFA50C5D@aol.com...
> 
> <snip>
> 
>>Especially is you get into a situation of marriages (or unions) of
>>convenience to get otherwise unqualified into your health insurance
>>pool.  Yes, these people are looking for a free ride.
>>
> <snip>
> 
> BC--
> 
>     I understand your point.  But if we had such a thing as a "contractual
> family" as I have suggested in an earlier post, then all "family rights"
> could be tied to the contractual obligations.  You could not insure as a
> family member someone for whom you did not take on an obligation.  If you
> limited your contract to 5 years, the SS, insurance, etc. would only cover
> for the same period.  No free ride, because you have to accept obligations
> first, yourself.
>     Married couples w/o children are subsidizing the ones w/ children, those
> w/fewer children are subsidizing those w/ many.  If that is not unfair, then
> why would teh proposed situation be unfair?  Just because it's traditional,
> doesn't mean it is not a free ride.  Of course, traditional values seem to
> say that people with children should expect a free ride in everything, and
> the childless should be grateful for paying the fare.  <tongue only partly
> in cheek>
>     Anyway, why shouldn't the insurance companies set rate per person
> covered, instead of per employee?  They have the freedon to change the
> pricing structure at any time.


They actually do that. "single" coverage as opposed to "family" 
coverage. The thing that got me was that "employee and spouse" was 
usually more money than "family" - are they punishing childless couples 
who don't both hold corporate jobs (where each partner would have their 
own insurance)?


> 
> --Dee
> 
> 
> 


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21519
From: David Silver 
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 22:05:10 -0700
Subject: Heinlein =?ISO-8859-1?Q?ConJos=E9?= Programming
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Some of you may receive a couple of this by E-mail, but it occurs to me 
that many of you can contribute as well as those who receive the E-mail, 
as you wish:

Dear Heinlein Society Members and Friends,

ConJosé is the name of this years 60th World Science Fiction Convention, 
being held as it happens in San Jose, California, Thursday, August 29 
through the U.S. Labor Day holiday, Monday, September 2, 2002.

If you've attended science-fiction conventions, you know this is the 
ultimate one conducted annually, at which the Hugo Awards are made. If 
you've never attended one, this is one you might consider. We, as The 
Heinlein Society, will have several events at ConJosé. I'll be sending 
you more information about some of these within the next week or so.

We've volunteered and our offer has been accepted by ConJosé Programming 
to assist them in formulating panels that will be given at the 
convention on Robert Heinlein.

We're looking for a few "off-the-beaten path ideas to tickle the fancy 
and tempt the jaded palate of JoeFan Congoer."

If you have any idea for an unusual subject for a Heinlein panel, please 
help us out, and reply by E-Mail (or here) with the idea as soon as 
possible.

Time is of the essence.

Very truly yours,
FOR THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS:

--
David M. Silver
Secretary-Treasurer
The Heinlein Society
   http://www.heinleinsociety.org
   http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
   "The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
       Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
       Lt (jg)., USN R'td (1907-1988)


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21520
From: Lorrita Morgan" 
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 02:27:17 -0700
Subject: Re: Heinlein ConJosé Programming
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Just the one I'm fighting with in all literature over 20 years old -- dated
language and culture.  RAH touched on this subject in DitS, "Coventry," The
Howard Family stories and to a lesser extent in "If This Goes On ..."  GR,
Job, and just about everything he wrote.

Right now our language and lifestyle changes at a pace that makes me a
dinosaur at 46.  Even if I didn't understand Elizabethan English and how to
bake a very good cake in a wood stove.  Books written in the year of my
birth are almost incomprehensible to the High School Honor student of 2002.

Try explaining a slide rule to kids raised on PCs and pocket sized
programmable scientific calculators.  My partner's grandchildren didn't
believe that computers used to take up whole buildings until we made them
watch the original "The Computer Wore Tennis Shoes."  (I remember thinking
that the computer in that movie was compact, efficient, and ahead of our
time -- when I wasn't drooling over Kurt Russell.)

It's only been ten years or so since the USSR broke up.  Try explaining the
Cold War to most High School kids.  or even that Russia, Ukraine, Georgia,
Lithuania, etc. all used to be the same country.  That those countries were
our enemies and we fought proxy wars with them.  Kids barely believe the we
fought with Germany and Japan.

The focus has shifted from space to self exploration.  The fever to seek out
new and exciting discoveries outside the atmosphere has cooled.  Now the
excitement is spread across many areas most selfish or self-serving -- stock
market, entrepreneurship, internet...  We are turning inward.  RAH's stories
usually have an outward looking feel.  While they are not altruistic, they
are unselfish in the sense that the plot aims to lead humanity to a new and
exciting place.

I hope this gives you some food for thought.  If anyone has any ideas on how
to get kids read and comprehend older books, give them up I need them; my
daughter, the future teacher, needs them; librarians and teachers everywhere
need them.
--
Later,

`rita
http://pages.prodigy.net/lorrita-m/index.html
"David Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:3D38EF86.3050801@verizon.net...
> Some of you may receive a couple of this by E-mail, but it occurs to me
> that many of you can contribute as well as those who receive the E-mail,
> as you wish:
>
> Dear Heinlein Society Members and Friends,
>
> ConJosé is the name of this years 60th World Science Fiction Convention,
> being held as it happens in San Jose, California, Thursday, August 29
> through the U.S. Labor Day holiday, Monday, September 2, 2002.
>
> If you've attended science-fiction conventions, you know this is the
> ultimate one conducted annually, at which the Hugo Awards are made. If
> you've never attended one, this is one you might consider. We, as The
> Heinlein Society, will have several events at ConJosé. I'll be sending
> you more information about some of these within the next week or so.
>
> We've volunteered and our offer has been accepted by ConJosé Programming
> to assist them in formulating panels that will be given at the
> convention on Robert Heinlein.
>
> We're looking for a few "off-the-beaten path ideas to tickle the fancy
> and tempt the jaded palate of JoeFan Congoer."
>
> If you have any idea for an unusual subject for a Heinlein panel, please
> help us out, and reply by E-Mail (or here) with the idea as soon as
> possible.
>
> Time is of the essence.
>
> Very truly yours,
> FOR THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS:
>
> --
> David M. Silver
> Secretary-Treasurer
> The Heinlein Society
>    http://www.heinleinsociety.org
>    http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
>    "The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
>        Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
>        Lt (jg)., USN R'td (1907-1988)
>
>



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21521
From: Ed Johnson 
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 14:39:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Heinlein ConJosé Programming
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

`rita:   You have given us some extensive food for thought.

In conversations with my bright 12 y.o. nephew, I had trouble
convincing him of the need to read books.  He informed me that
'print is dead' and everything he wanted was accessible on the
internet!  I was trying to get him hooked on some biographies from
my library.  He preferred the 5 page 'thumbnail' version from the
`net.  sigh. . .
  If I could get him to read, we could then discuss the cultural
differences between Heinlein's era and today.
(sorry: more questions than answers.)

Ed J





On Sat, 20 Jul 2002 02:27:17 -0700, "Lorrita Morgan"
<lorrita-m@prodigy.net> wrote:

>Just the one I'm fighting with in all literature over 20 years old -- dated
>language and culture.  RAH touched on this subject in DitS, "Coventry," The
>Howard Family stories and to a lesser extent in "If This Goes On ..."  GR,
>Job, and just about everything he wrote.
>
>Right now our language and lifestyle changes at a pace that makes me a
>dinosaur at 46.  Even if I didn't understand Elizabethan English and how to
>bake a very good cake in a wood stove.  Books written in the year of my
>birth are almost incomprehensible to the High School Honor student of 2002.
>
>Try explaining a slide rule to kids raised on PCs and pocket sized
>programmable scientific calculators.  My partner's grandchildren didn't
>believe that computers used to take up whole buildings until we made them
>watch the original "The Computer Wore Tennis Shoes."  (I remember thinking
>that the computer in that movie was compact, efficient, and ahead of our
>time -- when I wasn't drooling over Kurt Russell.)
>
>It's only been ten years or so since the USSR broke up.  Try explaining the
>Cold War to most High School kids.  or even that Russia, Ukraine, Georgia,
>Lithuania, etc. all used to be the same country.  That those countries were
>our enemies and we fought proxy wars with them.  Kids barely believe the we
>fought with Germany and Japan.
>
>The focus has shifted from space to self exploration.  The fever to seek out
>new and exciting discoveries outside the atmosphere has cooled.  Now the
>excitement is spread across many areas most selfish or self-serving -- stock
>market, entrepreneurship, internet...  We are turning inward.  RAH's stories
>usually have an outward looking feel.  While they are not altruistic, they
>are unselfish in the sense that the plot aims to lead humanity to a new and
>exciting place.
>
>I hope this gives you some food for thought.  If anyone has any ideas on how
>to get kids read and comprehend older books, give them up I need them; my
>daughter, the future teacher, needs them; librarians and teachers everywhere
>need them.


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21522
From: Michael P. Calligaro" 
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 14:54:33 -0700
Subject: Re: Federal Marriage Amendment
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I don't buy it.  As I see it, the federal government passing laws that =
forbid the states from allowing actions that don't directly harm people =
is a Bad Thing(tm).  If the federal government wanted to pass a law that =
forbid the states from taking away freedoms, that would be fine.  But =
forbiding that states grant them is out of line and has no place =
whatsoever in our constitution. =20

bytor
  "Charles Graft" <chasgraft@aol.com> wrote in message =
news:3D385EEF.B0DB7DC8@aol.com...
       No, personally I don't think this is or should be a federal =
issue.  But as to why the federal government claims that power, there is =
a "full faith and credit" constitutional issue involved, and the case is =
easily made that congress has the power to regulate what "full faith and =
credit" means.=20


------=_NextPart_000_003E_01C22FFD.5BECEB80
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2716.2200" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I don't buy it.  As I see it, the =
federal=20
government passing laws that forbid the states from allowing actions =
that don't=20
directly harm people is a Bad Thing(tm).  If the federal government =
wanted=20
to pass a law that forbid the states from taking away freedoms, that =
would be=20
fine.  But forbiding that states grant them is out of line and has =
no place=20
whatsoever in our constitution.  </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>bytor</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV>"Charles Graft" <<A=20
  href=3D"mailto:chasgraft@aol.com">chasgraft@aol.com</A>> wrote in =
message <A=20
  =
href=3D"news:3D385EEF.B0DB7DC8@aol.com">news:3D385EEF.B0DB7DC8@aol.com</A=
>...</DIV>
  <P>     No, personally I don't think this is or =
should be=20
  a federal issue.  But as to why the federal government claims =
that power,=20
  there is a "full faith and credit" constitutional issue involved, and =
the case=20
  is easily made that congress has the power to regulate what "full =
faith and=20
  credit" means. </P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_003E_01C22FFD.5BECEB80--


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21523
From: Dee" 
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 21:03:20 -0500
Subject: Re: Heinlein ConJosé Programming
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

"Ed Johnson" <eljohn2@comcast.spamthis.net > wrote in message
news:r8bjjusinje0q93ej9g1gtf35q4lomksa1@4ax.com...
> `rita:   You have given us some extensive food for thought.
>
> In conversations with my bright 12 y.o. nephew, I had trouble
> convincing him of the need to read books.  He informed me that
> 'print is dead' and everything he wanted was accessible on the
> internet!  I was trying to get him hooked on some biographies from
> my library.  He preferred the 5 page 'thumbnail' version from the
> `net.  sigh. . .
>   If I could get him to read, we could then discuss the cultural
> differences between Heinlein's era and today.
> (sorry: more questions than answers.)

    Ed, do you think he could identify with the difference between hearing a
2 minute synopsis of a movie and watching the movie?  Or hearing the melody
line versus listening tohis favorite music?  The synopsis can be very useful
in deciding what you want to spend your time and effort on, but a lot is
lost.
    I hope that instilling a love of reading when they are still babies
(mama holds and cuddle and reads) still carries over as they grow up.  If
they don't already have the love, then it willl be a lot harder to explain
that"efficiency" ain't everything.
    Yeah, more questions than answers, here, too.

--Dee



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21524
From: Geo Rule 
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 08:46:12 -0700
Subject: Re: Review writing
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


    My first thot was "no", but if you want to write it up that way we
can see how it looks.

On Thu, 18 Jul 2002 23:50:50 -0700, "Lorrita Morgan"
<lorrita-m@prodigy.net> wrote:

>Just a question or two.
>
>Do you want us, the reviewers, to give the history/language/culture
>lesson(s) that apply to our story?  Or ignore them and hope that these
>readers will be savvy enough to know that the world has changed since the
>story was written?
>
>My partner and I were talking about language drift today.  In "_We Also Walk
>Dogs," I caught several instances where the average college age person would
>not understand the narrative because either the word or its referent have
>changed since 1941.  My parents and I enjoyed the same books with very few
>problems in understanding.  My children and I had some problems.  My
>grandson will need to study to be able to understand.
>
>There are socio-cultural things in "Dogs" also that may need explanation.
>(I got back here without the book.  So examples will have to come later.)
>
>I'm cogitating.  My "caustic" comments are forthcoming.


Geo Rule

www.civilwarstlouis.com
****
Specializing in the Confederate Secret Service,
the Sultana, Gratiot St. Prison,
Jesse James & Friends, Copperheads,
the Northwest Conspiracy, and the Damn Dutch.

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21525
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 18:31:26 GMT
Subject: Re: Heinlein ConJosé Programming
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Sat, 20 Jul 2002 21:03:20 -0500, "Dee" <ke4lfgDELETETHIS@amsat.org>
wrote:
>    I hope that instilling a love of reading when they are still babies
>(mama holds and cuddle and reads) still carries over as they grow up.  If
>they don't already have the love, then it willl be a lot harder to explain
>that"efficiency" ain't everything.

Boy, I sure hope so.  We'll let you know. ;)  We're both wincing
because he's still too young to understand about treating things
carefully.  He decimated one of his favorite 'pull-out flap' books
yesterday and both Christine & I were both on edge for a minute that
he ripped up a book.  Then we took a deep breath!  The only thing we
can do is make sure he's not "alone" with the books for now.  At least
he's interested.... :)

JT

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21526
From: Dee" 
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 13:51:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Heinlein ConJosé Programming
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

JT--

    When I was little, my mother had an etagere full of china bric-a-brac.
Her solution to the breakage problem was to give me a little dimestore
ceramic puppy that was mine to pck up, handle etc., placed on the bottom
shelf.  The rest were mommy's, to handle only with supervision.  She never
had to move stuff to top shelves.
    There were several years when dusting that etagere and its contents were
a privelege of growing up.  (The con worked, in other words. <g>)
    Do they still make those "first books" out of fabric, that were nearly
indestructible--they were great for letting a kid love his own books when he
couldn't take care of them yet.  And as a side benefit, he couldn't bop baby
brother with them either.

--Dee
"JT" <JT@REM0VE.sff.net> wrote in message
news:3d3afce8.18685500@news.sff.net...
> On Sat, 20 Jul 2002 21:03:20 -0500, "Dee" <ke4lfgDELETETHIS@amsat.org>
> wrote:
> >    I hope that instilling a love of reading when they are still babies
> >(mama holds and cuddle and reads) still carries over as they grow up.  If
> >they don't already have the love, then it willl be a lot harder to
explain
> >that"efficiency" ain't everything.
>
> Boy, I sure hope so.  We'll let you know. ;)  We're both wincing
> because he's still too young to understand about treating things
> carefully.  He decimated one of his favorite 'pull-out flap' books
> yesterday and both Christine & I were both on edge for a minute that
> he ripped up a book.  Then we took a deep breath!  The only thing we
> can do is make sure he's not "alone" with the books for now.  At least
> he's interested.... :)
>
> JT
>



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21527
From: David Silver 
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 11:56:53 -0700
Subject: Update: (final arrangements) Heinlein Dinner at
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

[This communication is also being E-Mailed to Heinlein Society members, 
but there is no requirement of membership to attend the dinner. In fact, 
if you are not a member and interested in our activities, we urge you to 
consider attending, if you will be at ConJosé, or will be in the area. 
Membership in ConJosé is not a requirement, either. Any friend or reader 
of Robert Heinlein is welcome.]

The Heinlein Society
PO Box 1254
Venice, California 90294
www.heinleinsociety.org


Board of Directors

Virginia Heinlein
Tawn R. Johnson
Charles N. Brown
Yoji Kondo

Bill Patterson, Chairman
David M. Silver, Secretary-Treasurer


July 21, 2002

I promised I'd announce the full details as soon as I could. We 
finalized arrangements with the restaurant two days ago, on July 19. Now 
is the time to get your reservations in, quickly.

My thanks to both John David Galt and Fred Moulton, who graciously 
replied to my posted open request made in another newsgroup for persons 
living in the San Jose area, and were very helpful in selecting the 
restaurant venue.

The Heinlein Society's annual Robert A. Heinlein Memorial Dinner will be 
held commencing at 6:30 PM, on Friday evening, August 30, 2002, in 
conjunction with The 60th World Science Fiction Convention (Worldcon) 
McEnery Convention Center, San José, California [full dates of 
convention: Thursday, August 29 through Monday, September 2, 2002].

The dinner will be held at Eulipia Restaurant and Bar, 374 First Street, 
San Jose, California 95113, Phone (408) 280-6161. The restaurant is 
located one short block east of the Convention Center between San Carlos 
and Viola (or San Salvador) Streets.

Several authors and others important in the field of science-fiction 
have been invited to attend as our guests, including each of the judges 
who will determine winners of the newly-announced Heinlein Award [Ms. 
Elizabeth Moon, and Messrs. Greg Bear, Joe Haldeman, Yoji Kondo,  Larry 
Niven, Jerry Pournelle, Spider Robinson, Stanley Schmidt, Charles 
Sheffield, John Hill, and Herb Gilliland]; but we also are inviting 
others. Some of them, who helped with the blood drive last year, 
attended and we hope enjoyed the same function held by us last year at 
Bookbinder's in Philadelphia.

We hope all of you who can possibly consider attending the dinner do so. 
The dinner is a fixed price at $50.00 per guest. We have a limit of 
fifty guests. You may reply to this invitation to attend, by posting 
your reply in this newsgroup, or by E-mail; and I will hold your 
reservation pending receipt of your check in the Society's mail box 
address listed at top. I suggest you mail it so that I receive it not 
later than August 17th, as I will be leaving for ConJosé by automobile 
less than one week later.  A copy of the menu, with which I think you 
may be delighted, and an abbreviated program is set forth below, under 
my signature.

Please make your reservations as soon as reasonably possible. You may 
e-mail me at secretary@heinleinsociety.org, or at 
ag.plusone@verizon.net, if you wish to discuss your reservation or make 
arrangements otherwise, or require any further information.

Very truly yours,

FOR THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS:

David M. Silver
Secretary-Treasurer
The Heinlein Society
   http://www.heinleinsociety.org
   http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
   "The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
       Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
       Lt (jg)., USN R'td (1907-1988)

Location: Eulipia Restaurant and Bar
374 First Street, San Jose, California 95113
Phone (408) 280-6161    Email: eulipia@eulipia.com
[The restaurant is located one short block east of the Convention Center 
between San Carlos and Viola (or San Salvador) Streets.]

Hours:

6:30 to 7:30 PM Cocktail, Hors d'oeuvrs and Social Hour (No-host bar)
     Hors d'oeuvrs Menu
     Bruschetta with Pinenuts and Sundried Tomatoes
     Selection of Fine Cheese with Crostini and Water Crackers
     Goat Cheese and Sundried Tomato Totilla Wraps

7:30 to 9:00 PM Welcome and Dinner
     ---Salad of Endive and Arugula with Peas, French Breakfast
     Radish & Hazelnut Vinagrete
     ---Starter Platters of Roasted Whole Artichoke, Oysters on the
     Half Shell and Grilled Shrimp and Scallop Satay
     ---Main Course (choice of one):
     -Grilled Ribeye Steak with Garlic Mash and Cabernet Jus
     -Cashew Encrusted Seared Salmon with Fingerling
     Potatoes and Lemon Beure
     -Chicken Breast with Brie and a Roasted Garlic Sauce
     marinated in Dijon
     -Ricotta and Spinach Ravioli with Toasted Almonds
     and Brown Butter
     ---Desserts (choice of one)
     -Chocolate Lava Cake
     -Peach & Plum Cobbler
     -Lemon and Lime Pie
     -Creme Brulée
     Coffee or Tea

9:00 PM A *Short* Program of Festivities and Celebration



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21528
From: TreetopAngel" 
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 16:15:27 -0600
Subject: Re: Heinlein ConJosé Programming
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"JT" writes:


> Boy, I sure hope so.  We'll let you know. ;)  We're both wincing
> because he's still too young to understand about treating things
> carefully.  He decimated one of his favorite 'pull-out flap' books
> yesterday and both Christine & I were both on edge for a minute that
> he ripped up a book.  Then we took a deep breath!  The only thing we
> can do is make sure he's not "alone" with the books for now.  At least
> he's interested.... :)
>
> JT

Let him "read" circulars and the newspaper, after you are finished of
course.  Then if he tears a page it's okay and he will soon learn not to
tear the pages with gentle reassurance.  It's amazing how strong babies and
toddlers are until they learn to "be gentle."

Elizabeth



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21529
From: Michael P. Calligaro" 
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 15:40:59 -0700
Subject: Re: Heinlein ConJosé Programming
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

A few thoughts here.
1) A sad amount of modern music really is just the melody line from good
music written/performed in a "pre-sample" era...
2) There IS something to be said for synopses instead of watching full
movies.  There was a period of time where the radio commercials for the TV
show "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" gave pretty much the whole plot for that
week's episode.  I thought it was neat that I could follow the show without
needing to spend the time to watch it.

Print IS dead.  But print does not equal long fiction.  You can get long
fiction on the internet too.  People shouldn't look at ebooks as the death
of books.  They should look at ebooks as the salvation of reading.  Because
if you think today's kids are going to lug around paperbacks and textbooks,
you're sadly mistaken.

bytor

"Dee" <ke4lfgDELETETHIS@amsat.org> wrote in message
news:3d3a1683.0@news.sff.net...
>     Ed, do you think he could identify with the difference between hearing
a
> 2 minute synopsis of a movie and watching the movie?  Or hearing the
melody
> line versus listening tohis favorite music?  The synopsis can be very
useful
> in deciding what you want to spend your time and effort on, but a lot is
> lost.




------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21530
From: Michael P. Calligaro" 
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 15:46:47 -0700
Subject: Re: Review writing
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Is it REALLY that bad?  We were able to understand books in which people
rode horses instead of drove cars.  Why can't today's kids understand that
music used to come on discs, not over the internet?

Maybe part of our understanding of older books comes from the fact that we
also read "fantasy" where people ride horses and kill each other with swords
instead of handguns.  Maybe we need a modern-era "fantasy" in which people
listen to music by putting tapes in machines and communicate with each other
by using ancient old "telephones" that are wired to the wall and can't be
taken out of the house.

bytor

"Lorrita Morgan" <lorrita-m@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:3d37b6db.0@news.sff.net...
> My partner and I were talking about language drift today.  In "_We Also
Walk
> Dogs," I caught several instances where the average college age person
would
> not understand the narrative because either the word or its referent have
> changed since 1941.  My parents and I enjoyed the same books with very few
> problems in understanding.  My children and I had some problems.  My
> grandson will need to study to be able to understand.




------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21531
From: Filksinger" 
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 23:49:43 -0700
Subject: Re: If You Like RAH, You'll Like...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Lorrita Morgan wrote:
> One of my guilty pleasures is The Stainless Steel Rat series by Harry
> Harrison.  After reading a couple on fly this past week, I think W.
> W. Smith and Jim DiGriz could be buddies.

I quite agree. They'd get along famously, so long as DiGriz didn't get
stupid and attempt to target anything Woodie had an interest in.:)

--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declineds



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21532
From: Filksinger" 
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 23:56:08 -0700
Subject: Re: If You Like RAH, You'll Like...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Deb Houdek Rule wrote:
>> (However, it is possible to like RAH and Not like other SF authors
>> at all!  My wife liked Herbert's Dune series of books
>
>   I just reread a part of the Dune series. First book, as ever,
> splendid. An ever-growing sense of dismay as I read the others. I got
> to book 5 "Heretics of Dune" and read the first paragraph and just
> couldn't go on.

I put off Dune for years, as a book to read when I wanted a guaranteed good
book that I hadn't read. Then, oddly enough, I found it dull. I'm not sure
why. I liked some of Herbert's other stuff just fine, thank you. I
absolutely loved the fate of the villain in "The White Plague".

--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21533
From: Charles Graft 
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 06:36:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Federal Marriage Amendment
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Dee wrote:

> "Charles Graft" <chasgraft@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:3D385E89.EFA50C5D@aol.com...
>
> <snip>
> > Especially is you get into a situation of marriages (or unions) of
> > convenience to get otherwise unqualified into your health insurance
> > pool.  Yes, these people are looking for a free ride.
> <snip>
>
> BC--
>
>     I understand your point.  But if we had such a thing as a "contractual
> family" as I have suggested in an earlier post, then all "family rights"
> could be tied to the contractual obligations.  You could not insure as a
> family member someone for whom you did not take on an obligation.  If you
> limited your contract to 5 years, the SS, insurance, etc. would only cover
> for the same period.  No free ride, because you have to accept obligations
> first, yourself.
>     Married couples w/o children are subsidizing the ones w/ children, those
> w/fewer children are subsidizing those w/ many.  If that is not unfair, then
> why would teh proposed situation be unfair?  Just because it's traditional,
> doesn't mean it is not a free ride.  Of course, traditional values seem to
> say that people with children should expect a free ride in everything, and
> the childless should be grateful for paying the fare.  <tongue only partly
> in cheek>
>     Anyway, why shouldn't the insurance companies set rate per person
> covered, instead of per employee?  They have the freedon to change the
> pricing structure at any time.
>
> --Dee

Dee--
    I think that at a minimum there should be employee with spouse only rates as
opposed to employee with family rates.  Perhaps families of over three children
should pay larger premiums.

     Yes, single people tend to subsidize families on health insurance.  I know
that under the federal programs, the Postal Service directly pays more support
to those on family coverage than those on single coverage.

    Fair?  Probably not.  But there are those who are convinced that this is
free rather than a subsidy.
--
<<Big Charlie>>

"Democracy is a form of worship.  It is the worship of jackals by jackasses."
--  H. L. Menken



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21534
From: Charles Graft 
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 06:47:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Federal Marriage Amendment
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Voxwoman wrote:

>
> I always found it ironic that my medical insurance would shell out more
> than 10 grand for me to have a baby, but not 120 dollars for me to get
> the pill (that would have been their part of it after my 15 dollar
> co-pay). Although, if I was taking that same exact pill to fix a
> "hormone imbalance" they would have covered it. And they would have paid
> for an IUD, but not condoms, or sterilization, but not a diaphragm.

    They won't pay for weight reduction therapy (such as Xenical) but pay
heavily for all the medical costs that go along with being overweight.  I
agree this is quite shortsighted.  Perhaps even stupid.  But there is no more
lack of corporate stupidity than there is of personal; stupidity.


> >      Is family coverage limited to just two adults?  Why not an extended
> > family?
>
> AT&T had insurance just like that, in the old days. (How do I know? It
> was in a benefits booklet that discussed legacy coverage for the
> "old-timers") You were covered. Your spouse was covered. Your children
> were covered, your *parents* and *grandchildren* and *unmarried
> siblings* were also covered. (and your spouses' parents, too, IIRC) No
> wonder these jobs were so coveted back then...

     Yes, those jobs would be coveted.

    I have this image of a bachelor advertising for the best (financial or
other) offer to add a person to his coverage.

     Another problem is that if you switch companies,  neither the former or
new company is responsible for "pre-existing conditions", at least for a
while.  (The federal program is an exception -- perhaps I should say "in many
cases".)  Perhaps insurance companies should be responsible for treatment of
diseases discovered during the period of coverage?  As in liability coverage
-- if you are sued, the insurance company covering you during the time of the
incident is liable -- not the one you happen to be with when you are sued.
--
<<Big Charlie>>

"Democracy is a form of worship.  It is the worship of jackals by jackasses."
--  H. L. Menken



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21535
From: Charles Graft 
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 06:51:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Federal Marriage Amendment
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


--------------13EB2D3E6C7FE882BAB1993F
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"

"Michael P. Calligaro" wrote:

> I don't buy it.  As I see it, the federal government passing laws that
> forbid the states from allowing actions that don't directly harm
> people is a Bad Thing(tm).  If the federal government wanted to pass a
> law that forbid the states from taking away freedoms, that would be
> fine.  But forbiding that states grant them is out of line and has no
> place whatsoever in our constitution. bytor

Bytor--
     This does directly harm people.  Someone ends up paying for it.
But as long as it is not the politician doing the voting, they will vote
for anything that sounds good.
--
<<Big Charlie>>

"Democracy is a form of worship.  It is the worship of jackals by
jackasses." --  H. L. Menken


--------------13EB2D3E6C7FE882BAB1993F
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
"
<p>"Michael P. Calligaro" wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><style></style>
<font face="Arial"><font size=-1>I
don't buy it.  As I see it, the federal government passing laws that
forbid the states from allowing actions that don't directly harm people
is a Bad Thing(tm).  If the federal government wanted to pass a law
that forbid the states from taking away freedoms, that would be fine. 
But forbiding that states grant them is out of line and has no place whatsoever
in our constitution.</font></font> <font face="Arial"><font size=-1>bytor</font></font></blockquote>

<p><br>Bytor--
<br>     This does directly harm people.  Someone
ends up paying for it.  But as long as it is not the politician doing
the voting, they will vote for anything that sounds good.
<br>--
<br><<Big Charlie>>
<p>"Democracy is a form of worship.  It is the worship of jackals
by jackasses." --  H. L. Menken
<br> 
</body>
</html>

--------------13EB2D3E6C7FE882BAB1993F--


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21536
From: Ed Johnson 
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 11:57:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Review writing
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

`rita:    You have shed light on a problem that many on this forum
may Not have noticed during their own reading of 'dated' works.
(esp: RAH works).  Many on the HF have read such a wide variety of
works from diverse 'eras' that they tend to comprehend meanings that
are considered dated today, IMHO.
    As I grew up I enjoyed reading from the Golden Age of SF which
predated me by some 20 years.  I grew familiar with the speech
patterns of authors who wrote in the 1930's and 40's.  Today I tend
to have more trouble following young authors published in the past
10 years than I do with pre WW2 works.

Ed J (2 cents worth) 

On Thu, 18 Jul 2002 23:50:50 -0700, "Lorrita Morgan"
<lorrita-m@prodigy.net> wrote:

>Just a question or two.
>
>Do you want us, the reviewers, to give the history/language/culture
>lesson(s) that apply to our story?  Or ignore them and hope that these
>readers will be savvy enough to know that the world has changed since the
>story was written?
>
>My partner and I were talking about language drift today.  In "_We Also Walk
>Dogs," I caught several instances where the average college age person would
>not understand the narrative because either the word or its referent have
>changed since 1941.  My parents and I enjoyed the same books with very few
>problems in understanding.  My children and I had some problems.  My
>grandson will need to study to be able to understand.
>
>There are socio-cultural things in "Dogs" also that may need explanation.
>(I got back here without the book.  So examples will have to come later.)
>
>I'm cogitating.  My "caustic" comments are forthcoming.


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21537
From: Tom Royce" 
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 14:28:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Heinlein ConJosé Programming
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Just found this group after re-reading most of Heinlein's novels.

Regarding the ability to motivate young readers, I agree that you have to
catch them young and keep them reading constantly, until they don't know any
better. Both my wife and I are very fortunate, we were raised in reading
households. Even better, both of our parents saved our Childhood books... My
6 and 2 year old boys both have full bookcases in their rooms, are read to
nightly, and in the case of the 6 year old, has a flashlight in his bed so
he can read for 15 minutes alone before going to sleep. This is a great
treat for him...

The other important trick to teaching reading is to read in front of your
children, so they will feel it is a valid and worthwhile execise.

Tom

P.S. I think I will enjoy this group. :)

"JT" <JT@REM0VE.sff.net> wrote in message
news:3d3afce8.18685500@news.sff.net...
> On Sat, 20 Jul 2002 21:03:20 -0500, "Dee" <ke4lfgDELETETHIS@amsat.org>
> wrote:
> >    I hope that instilling a love of reading when they are still babies
> >(mama holds and cuddle and reads) still carries over as they grow up.  If
> >they don't already have the love, then it willl be a lot harder to
explain
> >that"efficiency" ain't everything.
>
> Boy, I sure hope so.  We'll let you know. ;)  We're both wincing
> because he's still too young to understand about treating things
> carefully.  He decimated one of his favorite 'pull-out flap' books
> yesterday and both Christine & I were both on edge for a minute that
> he ripped up a book.  Then we took a deep breath!  The only thing we
> can do is make sure he's not "alone" with the books for now.  At least
> he's interested.... :)
>
> JT



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21538
From: debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 18:53:10 GMT
Subject: Re: If You Like RAH, You'll Like...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


>why. I liked some of Herbert's other stuff just fine, thank you. I
>absolutely loved the fate of the villain in "The White Plague".

  Hmmm... I wasn't too impressed by Herbert's other stuff, including
the White Plague. It was okay but didn't dazzle me. 


Deb  (D.A. Houdek) 
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21539
From: Eli Hestermann 
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 15:37:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Heinlein =?iso-8859-1?Q?ConJos=E9?= Programming
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Tom Royce wrote:

> Just found this group after re-reading most of Heinlein's novels.

Welcome, Tom!

--
Eli V. Hestermann
Eli_Hestermann@dfci.harvard.edu
"Vita brevis est, ars longa."  -Seneca



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21540
From: TreetopAngel" 
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 18:19:59 -0600
Subject: Re: If You Like RAH, You'll Like...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


>
>   Hmmm... I wasn't too impressed by Herbert's other stuff, including
> the White Plague. It was okay but didn't dazzle me.
>
>
"The White Plague" taught me the basics of recombinant DNA, enough that I
dazzled my Biology 101 instructor at college.  He wanted to know how a
housewife and cashier (age 35 at the time) knew so much on the subject.  I
told him I read Science-Fiction and bought him a used copy of the book.  He
enjoyed the read and found it difficult, if not impossible, to stump me.

Elizabeth
(who can't remember NOT being able to read)



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21541
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 01:34:01 GMT
Subject: Re: Heinlein ConJosé Programming
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Sun, 21 Jul 2002 16:15:27 -0600, "TreetopAngel"
<zyoumans@bigsky.net> wrote:

>Let him "read" circulars and the newspaper, after you are finished of
>course.  Then if he tears a page it's okay and he will soon learn not to
>tear the pages with gentle reassurance.  It's amazing how strong babies and
>toddlers are until they learn to "be gentle."
>
>Elizabeth

Ah, but newsprint is so messy.... <G>  Actually, the problem is only
with "flap" books, those he gets so excited about that he rips the
flaps off.  Regular board books are actually okay, and I'll take the
chance with the "little golden reader" types that are thin paper
between thicker cardboard. 

Thanks for the thought...he does love the little circulars they give
out at Burger King for their "Kids Club".  We've had one in the car
for months and if we have to stop somewhere on an errand where one
stays in the car and one goes, the little BK magazine keeps him
entertained (and the parent left behind sane) for at least five
minutes straight. Damned if he doesn't really _look like he's
reading_. ;)

JT

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21542
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 01:34:01 GMT
Subject: Re: Heinlein ConJosé Programming
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Sun, 21 Jul 2002 13:51:49 -0500, "Dee" <ke4lfgDELETETHIS@amsat.org>
wrote:
>JT--
>
>    When I was little, my mother had an etagere full of china bric-a-brac.
>Her solution to the breakage problem was to give me a little dimestore
>ceramic puppy that was mine to pck up, handle etc., placed on the bottom
>shelf.  The rest were mommy's, to handle only with supervision.  She never
>had to move stuff to top shelves.

Well, we did a "bottom shelf is his" thing in the kitchen and it's
worked pretty well.  The top shelf is cookbooks and he knows not to
play with them. In the rest of the house he's pretty good with things
but we still have moved a lot out of his way.

>    Do they still make those "first books" out of fabric, that were nearly
>indestructible--they were great for letting a kid love his own books when he
>couldn't take care of them yet.  And as a side benefit, he couldn't bop baby
>brother with them either.
>
Yes, they still make them, he's got a few of them.  We usually bring
one to church as it doesn't make noise even if dropped. ;)  As I said
in another note, it's really just the "subgenre" :)  of the lift-flap
books that we need to watch him with.  Others he really can't harm.

JT

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21543
From: Lorrita Morgan" 
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 18:59:27 -0700
Subject: Re: Heinlein ConJosé Programming
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

I read to my girls in utero.  I also read to them while breast feeding,
later while bottle feeding, at bedtime, etc.  (When I had a job that
required me to get up at 0200 they tucked me in and read to me.)  They are
readers and they have been exposed to a wide variety of books from many eras
but they have problems with some of the concepts and some of the word use
brings them up short.

My older daughter took a college course in language that required her to use
the OED extensively.  She would call or email me with her exciting
"discoveries" about what this or that word used to mean.  This young woman
was read to, was raised in home with over 2, 000 titles ready accessible to
her, had and used her own library card before she was in kindergarten, reads
several books a week, AND she didn't know that a calculator could be a
person among other things.

One of the "words" that jumped out at me in my story was "Stereo."  In "_We
Also Walk Dogs"  Stereo is not used to denote a high-fidelity music or sound
system but in an older way that few outside photography would know today.
Today's author would say hologram, 3-D, or something else to paint the
picture of a three-dimensional projected image in the reader's mind.
Today's writer wouldn't say stereo tank either.  To convey the picture 1941
readers saw, today's writer would use terms like holostage, 'jector,
tri-dee, or just not take the technology for granted.

--
Later,

`rita
http://pages.prodigy.net/lorrita-m/index.html
"Tom Royce" <tomroyce@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3d3c4ed2.0@news.sff.net...
> Just found this group after re-reading most of Heinlein's novels.
>
> Regarding the ability to motivate young readers, I agree that you have to
> catch them young and keep them reading constantly, until they don't know
any
> better. Both my wife and I are very fortunate, we were raised in reading
> households. Even better, both of our parents saved our Childhood books...
My
> 6 and 2 year old boys both have full bookcases in their rooms, are read to
> nightly, and in the case of the 6 year old, has a flashlight in his bed so
> he can read for 15 minutes alone before going to sleep. This is a great
> treat for him...
>
> The other important trick to teaching reading is to read in front of your
> children, so they will feel it is a valid and worthwhile execise.
>
> Tom
>
> P.S. I think I will enjoy this group. :)
>
> "JT" <JT@REM0VE.sff.net> wrote in message
> news:3d3afce8.18685500@news.sff.net...
> > On Sat, 20 Jul 2002 21:03:20 -0500, "Dee" <ke4lfgDELETETHIS@amsat.org>
> > wrote:
> > >    I hope that instilling a love of reading when they are still babies
> > >(mama holds and cuddle and reads) still carries over as they grow up.
If
> > >they don't already have the love, then it willl be a lot harder to
> explain
> > >that"efficiency" ain't everything.
> >
> > Boy, I sure hope so.  We'll let you know. ;)  We're both wincing
> > because he's still too young to understand about treating things
> > carefully.  He decimated one of his favorite 'pull-out flap' books
> > yesterday and both Christine & I were both on edge for a minute that
> > he ripped up a book.  Then we took a deep breath!  The only thing we
> > can do is make sure he's not "alone" with the books for now.  At least
> > he's interested.... :)
> >
> > JT
>
>



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21544
From: Dee" 
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 22:07:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Heinlein ConJosé Programming
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"JT" <JT@REM0VE.sff.net> wrote in message
news:3d3caf4f.60266093@news.sff.net...
> Well, we did a "bottom shelf is his" thing in the kitchen and it's
> worked pretty well.  The top shelf is cookbooks and he knows not to
> play with them. In the rest of the house he's pretty good with things
> but we still have moved a lot out of his way.

    Well, as he gets a little older, you might give him something moderately
breakable that is his and his alone, start with adult supervisooooin and add
to "his" shelf as he learns how to handle.  This will help him learn ablut
not breaking things, which may transfer well to not breaking pets or baby
brothers.  <g>

> Yes, they still make them, he's got a few of them.  We usually bring
> one to church as it doesn't make noise even if dropped. ;)  As I said
> in another note, it's really just the "subgenre" :)  of the lift-flap
> books that we need to watch him with.  Others he really can't harm.

    Sounds like there's your answer--use the cloth books for his first
undupervised books, turn the others over to him gradually.  Anyhow,
replacement book:  $1.99.  Love of books: priceless.  If he learns the
loveof books, taking care of them will pretty much take care of itself, I
suspect, as he matures in both understanding and physical ability.

--Dee




------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21545
From: Dee" 
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 22:09:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Heinlein ConJosé Programming
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

"JT" <JT@REM0VE.sff.net> wrote in message
news:3d3cafa0.60347000@news.sff.net...
> Actually, the problem is only
> with "flap" books, those he gets so excited about that he rips the
> flaps off.

BTW, what do you mean flap books?  I do;t have kids and am a lot of years
away form my own children's books, so I don't know just what you mean.  But
if any book gets him that exxcited, I'd say it's a good sign.  <g>

--Dee



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21546
From: Dee" 
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 22:22:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Heinlein ConJosé Programming
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

"Lorrita Morgan" <lorrita-m@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:3d3cb891.0@news.sff.net...
>     I read to my girls in utero.  I also read to them while breast
feeding,
> later while bottle feeding, at bedtime, etc.  (When I had a job that
> required me to get up at 0200 they tucked me in and read to me.)  They are
> readers and they have been exposed to a wide variety of books from many
eras
> but they have problems with some of the concepts and some of the word use
> brings them up short.
>     My older daughter took a college course in language that required her
to use
> the OED extensively.  She would call or email me with her exciting
> "discoveries" about what this or that word used to mean.  This young woman
> was read to, was raised in home with over 2, 000 titles ready accessible
to
> her, had and used her own library card before she was in kindergarten,
reads
> several books a week, AND she didn't know that a calculator could be a
> person among other things.

    Well, Ed was talking about a slightly different problem, of kids finding
reading "unnecessary."  My remarks about instilling a love of reading
starting as babies was addressed to that, rather than to the problem you
posed.  But, maybe you have at  least a small ppiece of the answer in your
daughters.  The love of reading came first, and the sense of discovery led
them to want to find out about those words and usages that brought them up
short.  Of course, that doesn't offer any help for the situation of kids you
are trying to cultivate the reading addiction in.  (Menaing, not your own
kids, but school, etc.)

>
> One of the "words" that jumped out at me in my story was "Stereo."  In
"_We
> Also Walk Dogs"  Stereo is not used to denote a high-fidelity music or
sound
> system but in an older way that few outside photography would know today.

    Or people familiar with referring to stereoscopic vision.  If the joy of
discovery is there, this is a great chance to consider how "stereo" is
accomplished by having a pair of sensory organs.  How human eyes, alligned
forward, see differently form animal eyes aligned more to the side.  Etc.,
etc.  What starts put as a stopper might turn into fun.  But not necessarily
for a kid with an MTV attention span.  It's a shame to think that some
fairly contemporary work may be on the way to as foreign a language as
Elizabethan English.

--Dee



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21547
From: Michael P. Calligaro" 
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 20:52:28 -0700
Subject: Re: Federal Marriage Amendment
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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Come on, BC.  "States, you're not allowed to decide what constitutes a =
marraige, because doing so might cost someone money, and that's a direct =
harm to them."  By that logic, there should be no state laws.  My state =
decides whether or not to have state parks.  And someone ends up paying =
for those as well.  Should we have an amendment that bans state parks? =20

I can't believe you're coming down on the side of pushing power up =
toward the federal level instead of down toward the city level.

bytor
  "Charles Graft" <chasgraft@aol.com> wrote in message =
news:3D3BF1B3.38253654@aol.com...
       This does directly harm people.  Someone ends up paying for it. =20


------=_NextPart_000_00D2_01C231C1.B0BF6E60
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2716.2200" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Come on, BC.  "States, you're not =
allowed to=20
decide what constitutes a marraige, because doing so might cost someone =
money,=20
and that's a direct harm to them."  By that logic, there should be =
no state=20
laws.  My state decides whether or not to have state parks.  =
And=20
someone ends up paying for those as well.  Should we have an =
amendment that=20
bans state parks?  </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I can't believe you're coming down on =
the side of=20
pushing power up toward the federal level instead of down toward the =
city=20
level.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>bytor</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV>"Charles Graft" <<A=20
  href=3D"mailto:chasgraft@aol.com">chasgraft@aol.com</A>> wrote in =
message <A=20
  =
href=3D"news:3D3BF1B3.38253654@aol.com">news:3D3BF1B3.38253654@aol.com</A=
>...</DIV>
  <DIV>     This does directly harm people.  =
Someone=20
  ends up paying for it.  <BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_00D2_01C231C1.B0BF6E60--


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21548
From: Filksinger" 
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 21:58:04 -0700
Subject: Re: Heinlein ConJosé Programming
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

JT wrote:
<snip>
> Boy, I sure hope so.  We'll let you know. ;)  We're both wincing
> because he's still too young to understand about treating things
> carefully.  He decimated one of his favorite 'pull-out flap' books
> yesterday and both Christine & I were both on edge for a minute that
> he ripped up a book.  Then we took a deep breath!  The only thing we
> can do is make sure he's not "alone" with the books for now.  At least
> he's interested.... :)

Indeed.

With my son, a love of books was instilled early, and he still loves them.
He's read pretty much all the Heinlein juvenilles as of about 10 years old,
and I'm debating when he will be old enough for the rest.

I still remember the day when he was about 18 months when I realized just
how much he wanted to read books. I gave him the colorful newspaper flyer to
"read", while I read my novel. He was wandering around, "reading" his
newspaper, when he came within reach. He brought his newspaper down on the
book I was reading at that moment, wrapped his arms around the whole thing,
and ran as fast as he could.:)

That was when I realized, not only did he want to read, but I was going to
have to keep an extra close eye on this one.

--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21549
From: debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 19:25:15 GMT
Subject: Re: If You Like RAH, You'll Like...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


>"The White Plague" taught me the basics of recombinant DNA, enough that I
>dazzled my Biology 101 instructor at college.  He wanted to know how a
>housewife and cashier (age 35 at the time) knew so much on the subject.  I
>told him I read Science-Fiction and bought him a used copy of the book.  He
>enjoyed the read and found it difficult, if not impossible, to stump me.

  LOL. Sounds familiar. Heinlein books got me straight "A"s in junior
high and high school science classes. 

  Nice to meet you, Elizabeth.


Deb  (D.A. Houdek) 
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21550
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 01:03:40 GMT
Subject: Re: Heinlein ConJosé Programming
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Mon, 22 Jul 2002 22:09:54 -0500, "Dee" <ke4lfgDELETETHIS@amsat.org>
wrote:
>BTW, what do you mean flap books?  I do;t have kids and am a lot of years
>away form my own children's books, so I don't know just what you mean.  But
>if any book gets him that exxcited, I'd say it's a good sign.  <g>
>
"lift the flap" books.  One of his first favorites was "Peekaboo
Puppy".  On every page the puppy is hiding in a different place.  Lift
the cutaway flap on the page and you find where the puppy is hiding.
Now he likes the Sesame Street book where each page has five or six
flaps that show shapes (and the word for the shape is under the flap)
or opposites (lift the flap for short and it becomes tall with an
example picture).

Over a pretty short amount of time the flap gets worn and it's easy to
rip it.  So then I attempt to tape it with the lighter packing tape,
and he figures out a way to get all the tape off, too. :)  Or I have
to put so much tape on that the book can't close anymore!

But the kid LOVES books so far.  We read to him every night before bed
and anytime he asks for a book.  He sees us both reading every day.
He will have a good example to continue exploring them.  I personally
hope he likes comics so I have an excuse to keep buying them. ;)

I think the original question of kids not having the 'attention span'
to digest books with unfamiliar terms/situations (I know I'm
rephrasing it, sorry) speaks of how the kids are taught to learn.  I
would submit that children in the nuclear family of HFer-types would
learn how to 'research' and would be more likely to stay 'broadly'
read.

What I ponder about sometimes is the easy access to information that
internet-linked kids now have.  I didn't have encyclopedias in my
house growing up; I would have to go to the library and get
information from reference materials there which took a significant
amount of effort to get published and placed, and which usually had
some sort of cross-checking implied before publication.

My son(s) will be able to do a google search on any subject and the
geocities sites will be weighted along with the Encyclopedia
Britannica.  I wonder what the new "authorities" will become?

JT

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21551
From: TreetopAngel" 
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 10:53:02 -0600
Subject: Re: If You Like RAH, You'll Like...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Deb Houdek Rule" writes:

>   LOL. Sounds familiar. Heinlein books got me straight "A"s in junior
> high and high school science classes.
>
>   Nice to meet you, Elizabeth.
>
>
When I had a choice for reading material, it was always Science-Fiction and
some Fantasy.  The "Dune" series was mentioned upthread...I took an
"advanced" SF literature class in High School.  The teacher decided to make
it a seminar class and we got to decide what book we would be discussing.
My choice was SIASL, the class majority voted for "Dune."  I passed the
class, but never read the book, stubborn and angry (normal for me, esp. at
that age.)  I tried to read "Dune" for many years and was never able to get
through the first chapter.  Finally, I was able to make it and ended up
enjoying it, can't say much for the books that came after.

I am currently on an alternate genre kick, but love discussing books.

Nice to meet you, too, Deb.

Elizabeth

~~~~~~
Perry's Law:  Books expand to exceed the available space.  That is, no
matter how much shelf space you have, you will have [or will very shortly
have] too many books.

Also, if you take all the books off a bookcase or out of a box, you cannot
get them all back in.

~~Otter Perry, alt.books.pratchett




------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21552
From: debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 21:38:16 GMT
Subject: Heinlein Page additions
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


  I just put up an update to the Heinlein page. It includes additions
to the "Family History" page with information on RAH's siblings and
their careers. 

  A new page added is about Robert A Heinlein and his brother Rex Ivar
Heinlein at the US Naval Academy. 

  The reviews/articles of Heinlein's works by Forum members are
getting very good hits--more are welcome. Step right up to pick the
novel and/or short story you'd like to cover. 

  http://www.dahoudek.com/heinlein

  Also added to my homepage another chapter of my historical/science
fiction/romance novel "Of All the Western Stars". 

  I may be a bit unreponsive for a week or so--I have to get a fantasy
novel finished and revised in short order for a potential publisher
who wants to see it--wish me luck!


Deb  (D.A. Houdek) 
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21553
From: David Wright" 
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 18:41:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Heinlein Page additions
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Deb Houdek Rule" <debrule@dahoudek.com> wrote in message
news:3d3f1c85.9417981@NEWS.SFF.NET...
>
>   I just put up an update to the Heinlein page. It includes additions
> to the "Family History" page with information on RAH's siblings and
> their careers.
>
>   A new page added is about Robert A Heinlein and his brother Rex Ivar
> Heinlein at the US Naval Academy.
>
>   The reviews/articles of Heinlein's works by Forum members are
> getting very good hits--more are welcome. Step right up to pick the
> novel and/or short story you'd like to cover.

It looks great, Deb.

I'll take a swing at Citizen if no one else has spoken for it.

David Wright



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21554
From: Lorrita Morgan" 
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:07:44 -0700
Subject: Re: If You Like RAH, You'll Like...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

> ~~~~~~
> Perry's Law:  Books expand to exceed the available space.  That is, no
> matter how much shelf space you have, you will have [or will very shortly
> have] too many books.
>
> Also, if you take all the books off a bookcase or out of a box, you cannot
> get them all back in.
>
> ~~Otter Perry, alt.books.pratchett
>
>
>
>
Don't I know it!
--
Later,

`rita whose children threaten to get rid of 90% of her books (>3k at last
count) whenever she leaves the house for more than three days.
http://pages.prodigy.net/lorrita-m/index.html



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21555
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 01:28:22 GMT
Subject: Dr. Kondo article online
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Check out
http://www.sfrevu.com/2002/2002-07%20Issue/-%20Cover/index.html

Or just www.sfrevu.com if that doesn't work.  You're looking for the
July issue, the "Opening Space for the 21st Century" section.

JT

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21556
From: Michael P. Calligaro" 
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 23:11:39 -0700
Subject: Re: Heinlein Page additions
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Good luck, Deb!

bytor

"Deb Houdek Rule" <debrule@dahoudek.com> wrote in message
news:3d3f1c85.9417981@NEWS.SFF.NET...
>   I may be a bit unreponsive for a week or so--I have to get a fantasy
> novel finished and revised in short order for a potential publisher
> who wants to see it--wish me luck!




------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21557
From: TreetopAngel" 
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 02:14:29 -0600
Subject: Re: If You Like RAH, You'll Like...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


> > Perry's Law:  Books expand to exceed the available space.  That is, no
> > matter how much shelf space you have, you will have [or will very
shortly
> > have] too many books.
> >
> > Also, if you take all the books off a bookcase or out of a box, you
cannot
> > get them all back in.
> >
> > ~~Otter Perry, alt.books.pratchett
> >
> >
> >
> >
> Don't I know it!

LOL, I keep threatening to rent another apartment so I have a place to sit
and read.

Elizabeth




------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21558
From: TreetopAngel" 
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 02:15:51 -0600
Subject: Re: Heinlein Page additions
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


>   I may be a bit unreponsive for a week or so--I have to get a fantasy
> novel finished and revised in short order for a potential publisher
> who wants to see it--wish me luck!
>
>
> Deb  (D.A. Houdek)


Good Luck, Deb!

Elizabeth



------------------------------------------------------------

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