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Archive of:   sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Archive desc: The Internet home for the Heinlein Forum
Archived by:  webnews@sff.net
Archive date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 03:33:41
============================================================

Article 21635
From: debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 03:18:44 GMT
Subject: Re: Puzzle
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


>bytor, I'm still with you that 2.5 is equally valid, given the information we
>had.  There's no reason, a priori, to expect one pattern is more likely
>correct than another.

  There was a precidence established of whole numbers which gives four
an edge over 2 1/2. 

  
Deb  (D.A. Houdek) 
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21636
From: Michael P. Calligaro" 
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 20:21:08 -0700
Subject: Re: Well, if we're going to do puzzles...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

I won't put in spoiler space, because the answer isn't right.  (-:

The malfunctioning computer can answer any question any way he wants.  So,
he could answer your (very clever) question with a "true."  Yeah, it would
be a lie, but hey, he's allowed to do that.  He's allowed to tell the truth
too.

It's the fact that you have to deal with a computer that follows no pattern
at all that makes this one neat.

bytor

<filksinger@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:3d5a7039.0@news.sff.net...
> Spoilers
>
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
> Well, this will work if and only if the possibilities are true answer,
false
> answer, or "Not answerable". If he might say things at random, you're
stuck.
>
> "If you were to answer the question "Are you working properly" with the
> same accuracy as you will answer this question, what would the answer be?"
>
> If it is a good computer, the answer will be yes. If it is malfunctioning,
> it will either answer "Not Answerable" (and thus is the malfunctioning
computer),
> or "No", because it is either answering truthfully about what it would
truthfully
> say (i.e. No, it is not working properly), or it is false saying that it
> would say it is broken, when it would in fact have falsely said it was
working
> (i.e. If I asked "are you working properly", it would have said yes, and
> so it falsely reports that it would have said no).
>
> Hows that?:)



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21637
From: Michael P. Calligaro" 
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 20:33:38 -0700
Subject: Re: Cat problem - need advice
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

My two cats are sisters (from the same litter).  They "fight" this way all
the time, and have since they were kittens.  They make loud, growling,
whining sounds (and they're half siamese, so they're very vocal about it)
and generally sound like they're trying to kill each other.  Sometimes one
takes off as if to say, "I don't want to play anymore" and the other chases
after her.

I've seen them bite and rake each other's faces with their back claws, but
they've never hurt each other.  And I've seen them go from grooming each
other to attacking each other to grooming each other again in the span of
about 10 seconds.  So, I'm pretty sure they're just playing (but, despite 10
years of this, it's still hard to tell from outward appearances :-).

I'm sure different cats are different, so I won't say that yours are
definitely okay since mine are okay.  But I will offer the above as evidence
that it might be fine.  From a pure speculation standpoint, though, I'd
guess that if they normally get along, they're probably just playing now.
If the littler one got a bit hurt once, you'll know, because either the
bigger one will be walking around looking guilty, or the little one will be
hiding from the bigger one.  I don't think that in typical playing they're
likely to seriously hurt each other, though.

bytor


"Al Carnali" <al@carnali.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.17c4bdbee2fc3478989680@news.sff.net...



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21638
From: David M. Silver" 
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 01:33:20 -0700
Subject: Re: Cat problem - need advice
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum



Al Carnali wrote:

[snip]

I wouldn't worry much about Newt seriously injuring Pinky at this stage. 
Except for my present Bob, my experience is limited to observations of 
other cats owned by my family. Mother kept cats about thirty years, 
usually two or more. So has my sister. One ordinarily establishes 
dominance, irrespective of gender and whatever alterations are made in 
reproductive abilities; she or he owns the house, the others live under 
the beds or in the corners or venture forth at the discretion of the 
dominant one. Unless you introduce two mature cats to each other, they 
usually do not hurt each other.

There are some cats you cannot introduce other cats to without expecting 
trouble. They are too aggressive and territorial; and you have to watch 
them to protect them. I currently have one, a short haired black altered 
(not by me) tom, rather small like a Burmese, but about half filled out 
(as if he almost reached maturity before they disconnected his spark 
plugs), but very aggressive under certain circumstances. He showed up at 
my trash cans in the alley one day for about three weeks and ordered us, 
in no uncertain terms, to adopt and feed him every time someone was out 
there until we complied with his wishes. He was about two, maybe three, 
when he showed up, so his habits are developed and pretty well fixed. It 
does not seem to have penetrated his flat bumpy head that he is altered. 
He's about six or seven now. He will attack, seriously, any cat, any 
size, any gender and any condition that intrudes in his territory; and 
he will attack any small or young dog he thinks he can intimidate. He 
kills tree rats (palm rats we call them out here in La-La land), mice, 
birds, and I think he killed an opossum I found in the front yard about 
twice his size. He seemed rather proud and excited when he called and 
dragged me down to see it. There was absolutely no way he could drag 
that thing into the house, as he is wont to do with other victims, some 
not quite yet deceased. Watch out if you live in snake country with one 
like this. He will hide from and stalk strange humans who enter his 
territory. He hisses at humans who bear the scent of other cats. He's a 
little more domesticated around humans than he used to be--but not much. 
Ever see a cat stalk the mailman from above way up in a tree? From 
branch to branch right above the mailman about thirty feet? We do not 
have nesting birds around, needless to say. He is not a real social cat 
with humans or other beasts. Exception: he had what I think was a 
sibling he would permit to lay about in the yard or on the cement 
parking spaces for a year or so, and very occasionally let in the cat 
door to share his food or water. The probable sibling simply stopped 
showing up one day, as is the fate of alley cats always. The only thing 
you can do, if you have one like this, or if Newt develops this way, is 
listen whenever you let him out, and immediately get out there if you 
hear a fight start and grab him. By the time I get down there usually, 
it's over and the other one is long gone; but occasionally I find Bob 
practically standing atop the other, fur swelled up to make him seem 
about twice the puny little size he really is, with the intruder in a 
completely subservient position, flat with feet tucked in and head down, 
dead silent, usually with its collar, if it had one, torn off. If they 
are serious they go for the neck with teeth; and obviously for the belly 
with the hind raking claws judging from that flat belly protection 
posture I occasionally find intruders. He has and will mark any fence 
corner post I put up, or corner or boundary tree, claw the hell out of 
it, as high as he can, and really scrape it down. That is his 
territorial declaration! I, Master of All I Survey, live here. Stay off.

Unless Newt starts developing these modes of character and attack you 
probably don't have a problem, having another cat around so long as it 
is the same age and you introduce them as kittens. Mock fight is play 
and training for the future.

Of course, disclaimer, my experience as first hand caretaker is limited 
to this one strange little aggressive used-to-be-(I think)-an unaltered 
young but mature tom. Never had another cat because we always had dogs 
before the kid grew up. I always had an affinity for stray toms, 
however. Mother would never let me keep them. But it was fun to watch 
all the strays in the neighborhood turn out to be the same color as the 
dominant tom after a while. For about twenty years, practically all the 
strays in a neighborhood near the beach when I lived were vividly and 
oddly marked orange tabbies -- and that strain hung around for at least 
four generations after the tom showed up -- would have been nice to 
imagine Pixel somehow made it down here from Santa Cruz after Ginny had 
to leave him with neighbors who were their friends, and he thereafter 
disappeared one day, after they left for Carmel and then Ginny moved to 
the Southeast US after Robert died.

Regards,
David




------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21639
From: Dee" 
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 06:43:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Puzzle
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Deb Houdek Rule" <debrule@dahoudek.com> wrote in message
news:3d5b1d32.275155@NEWS.SFF.NET...
>
> >bytor, I'm still with you that 2.5 is equally valid, given the
information we
> >had.  There's no reason, a priori, to expect one pattern is more likely
> >correct than another.
>
>   There was a precidence established of whole numbers which gives four
> an edge over 2 1/2.

    I think the puzzle would have been more "correct" to give one more
example, thus ruling out the 2-1/2 response.  But since it was supposed to
be a pzzle, I assumed that the obvious was incorrect.

--Dee



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21640
From: Dee" 
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 06:49:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Cat problem - need advice
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Michael P. Calligaro" <bytor@mystikeep.com> wrote in message
news:3d5b2108.0@news.sff.net...
> I've seen them bite and rake each other's faces with their back claws, but
> they've never hurt each other.  And I've seen them go from grooming each
> other to attacking each other to grooming each other again in the span of
> about 10 seconds.  So, I'm pretty sure they're just playing (but, despite
10
> years of this, it's still hard to tell from outward appearances :-).

    When Mu got really provoked with Loki, she pinned him down and forcibly
groomed him.  It seemed to be her way of calming herself down.  He was twice
her size, but she was the dominant one, so he let her.

--Dee



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21641
From: Lorrita Morgan" 
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 11:51:47 -0700
Subject: Re: Cat problem - need advice
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

With three of the furry things in my house I let them work out their
differences.  They do get rather vocal and physical about it, especially the
boys.  Then I wake up and find all five of my furry children in bed with me.
Felines snuggled on the left, canines curled up on the right and Mom with no
room left to breathe in the middle.

I do keep several "cat training tools," squirt guns, through out the house
to save my furniture, books, electronics, knick knacks, and other attractive
nuisances from feline predation.  Plain water in a Dollar Store water pistol
is the best cat trainer.  Just aim and shoot.  One squirt usually stops the
action.  It takes a month or twelve to extinguish the undesirable behavior.
If you don't abuse the poor kitties by drowning them or shooting them for
sport, the technique works very well.


--
Later,

`rita
http://pages.prodigy.net/lorrita-m/index.html
"Al Carnali" <al@carnali.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.17c4bdbee2fc3478989680@news.sff.net...
> Hi Folks,
>
> I came to the Heinlein forum for advise because I know many of you are
> cat lovers and could probably help me out with my problem.
>
> About two weeks ago, my wife and I decided it was once again time to
> bring a cat into our house.  My cat of 19 years had died in the spring
> and we both felt we were finally ready to adopt a new cat.
>
> We went to one of the local shelters where we became attached to two
> kittens.  One of them is a small white, grey and black twelve week old
> named Pinky.  The other is a buff sixteen week old we called Newt.
>
> Pinky is the sweetest most affectionate cat I've ever come across.  He's
> really gentle and quiet and is very happy just sitting up against you
> and purring.
>
> Newt, on the other hand, is the cat from hell.  He's into everything, is
> always trying to scratch and bite us and finds new and unique ways to
> drive us crazy on an hourly basis.  I don't think any of this is
> malicious, I think it's just young hyperactive kitty behavior and I'm
> sure with time we could probably work him through it.
>
> My concern is for Pinky.  He's much smaller then Newt and every once in
> a while Newt just goes after him.  Again, I think it's just kitten
> behavior but he does some serious scratching and biting and I'm afraid
> he might do some permanent damage.  For the most part, Pinky doesn't
> seem to mind these confrontations, he usually just gives it right back
> to him, but every once and a while he'll take off and hide under one of
> the cabinets.
>
> When I'm around, I try to let the fights go on, unless it gets too
> aggressive, because I figure they have to work out the relationship
> themselves.  I do worry about what happens during the day when I'm at
> work.
>
> Have any of you been through anything like this?  If so how did you
> handle it?  Am I just being foolishly worried or is my concern
> legitimate?
>
> Thanks for your help,
>
>              Al
>
>
>
>



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21642
From: Al Carnali 
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 21:49:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Cat problem - need advice
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Thank you all for the great advise.  It's really help to ease my 
worries.

The last time around I only had one cat in the house so I've never been 
through the turf wars that two cats seem to have.  It's still very weird 
seeing two animal declaring World War III each other one minute and then 
a few minutes later snuggled up together in the cat carrier.

Thanks again.

    - Al

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21643
From: Michael P. Calligaro" 
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 20:34:00 -0700
Subject: Re: Cat problem - need advice
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

"Lorrita Morgan" <lorrita-m@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:3d5bf851.0@news.sff.net...
> I do keep several "cat training tools," squirt guns, through out the house

That worked for me for a short while, but Matty just quickly became
waterproof.  I'd squirt her, and she'd just turn and sneer at me.  So I'd
squirt her in the face, and she'd just stare at me defiantly.  Went to
bigger and bigger squirtguns, but didn't get anywhere.

bytor



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21644
From: Michael P. Calligaro" 
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 20:47:33 -0700
Subject: Re: Puzzle
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

As told, there's really nothing wrong with the puzzle.  I'd say 2 and a
half, and the guard just wouldn't open the door.  However, the wording of
this violates the first of Bytor's Rules for Brain Teaser Excellence* so
I'll offer an alternate telling of the puzzle.

You're trying to get into a restricted area by going unnoticed through a
door that requires a secret code.  The door has a small screen and three
buttons, q, +, and a.  You see one person walk up to the door and press the
"q" button.  The screen shows a 12.  He presses the "+" button six times,
then presses the "a" button.  The door opens, and he goes through, carefully
closing it behind him.  Another person walks up to the door and presses q.
The screen says 6.  He then presses the + button three times and presses a.
The door opens, and he goes through, carefully closing it behind him.
Realizing that you're not going to be able to sneak through without solving
the code, you walk up to the door and press q.  The screen says 5.  You
hesistate for a moment, and the people around you start to look at you
suspiciously.  What do you do?

bytor


* These are Bytor's Rules for Brain Teaser Excellence
There are many good brain teasers that don't follow these rules, but the
best ones match the following:
1) It's got to seem impossible
2) It's got to be algorithmic
3) It's got to be something you could imagine doing in an Infocom game


"Dee" <ke4lfgDELETETHIS@amsat.org> wrote in message
news:3d5b9532.0@news.sff.net...
>     I think the puzzle would have been more "correct" to give one more
> example, thus ruling out the 2-1/2 response.  But since it was supposed to
> be a pzzle, I assumed that the obvious was incorrect.




------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21645
From: Gordon G. Sollars 
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 00:26:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Well, if we're going to do puzzles...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3d59ef70.0@news.sff.net>, Michael P. Calligaro writes...
> This is my favorite of the "knights and knaves" type puzzles.
> 
> You go into a strange store, and in the back corner are three special
> computers.  They're omnipotent and always give the right answer if an answer
> can be given, but only answer Yes or No (or "Unanswerable" if it's a
> question that has no answer).  So, if you said, "Is it currently raining in
> New York" they'd answer yes if it is and no if it isn't, and they'd get it
> right.  On the other hand, if you said, "Is this sentence false?" they'd
> reply "Unaswerable."  Etc.
> 
> Trouble is, one of them is malfunctioning.  You have no idea how the broken
> one will respond.  He may tell the truth, he may lie, he may say that an
> aswerable question is unanswerable.  No clue whatsoever what he'll do.
> 
> You'd really like to buy one of these computers, but you can only afford
> one.  The shopkeeper will let you ask one question, to one computer (you can
> pick which), and then you have to choose which to buy.  Again, two always
> tell the truth, the other does whatever it feels like at the moment.
> 
> What question do you ask?
> 
> bytor

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Label the machines A, B, and C.

Ask A, "Is B bad (i.e., malfunctioning)?"  There are three cases for A,B, 
and C:

(good, good, bad) -> A says No
(good, bad, good) -> A says Yes
(bad, good, good) -> A says No, Yes, or Unanswerable

If A says the Unanswerable, you may buy either B or C.  If A says No, buy 
B; if Yes, buy C.

-- 
Gordon Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21646
From: Michael P. Calligaro" 
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 00:14:58 -0700
Subject: Re: Well, if we're going to do puzzles...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Good job.  That's precisely it.

bytor

"Gordon G. Sollars" <gsollars@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.17c648f47dd0d20e9897fa@news.sff.net...



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21647
Article no longer available
------------------------------------------------------------

Article 21648
From: postmaster@sff.net
Date: 9 Aug 2002 08:33:42 GMT
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Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

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------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21649
From: webnews@sff.net
Date: 16 Aug 2002 10:44:00 GMT
Subject: SpamGuard
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

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Article 21650
From: postmaster@sff.net
Date: 9 Aug 2002 08:33:42 GMT
Subject: No articles presently in newsgroup.
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

This newsgroup has no articles yet; however, if
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------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21651
From: webnews@sff.net
Date: 16 Aug 2002 11:04:12 GMT
Subject: SpamGuard
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

One or more articles in this newsgroup have been cancelled by the sysops
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To avoid seeing this notice in the future, set your newsreader to filter
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------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21652
From: Randy J. Jost" 
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 06:57:30 -0600
Subject: Cats
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Since there was a recent discussion of cats and their behavior (surprise!)  I
thought I'd share this link -

         http://www.coolfunnypictures.com

you might finds some of these amusing.  Look under the categrory of Best Rated
Funny Pictures.  Might explain what really goes on when you leave the house
during the day.  Especially this one

      http://www.coolfunnypictures.com/Whatthepetsaredoing.html

Randy



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21653
From: Gordon G. Sollars 
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:28:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Well, if we're going to do puzzles...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3d5ca672.0@news.sff.net>, Michael P. Calligaro writes...
> Good job.  That's precisely it.
> 
> bytor

I must confess that I was already familiar with the answer to a similar 
problem, taken from a book by Raymond Smullyan.  I actually like his 
version better.

There are two kinds of computers, Chinese and Japanese, that can 
infallibly answer any yes/no question.  One kind flashes a green light 
for "Yes" and a red light for "No"; the other does the reverse.  
Unfortunately no one knows which kind is which.  Smullyan sets a number 
of puzzles regarding these machines, such as "What yes/no question is 
such that the computer is bound to answer by flashing red regardless of 
what kind it is?"

We also have three of these computers in a store and one of them is 
malfunctioning, answering with random red or green flashes.  The other 
two are perfectly OK.  What yes/no question do you ask to be sure of 
buying one of the good machines? 

-- 
Gordon Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21654
From: Michael P. Calligaro" 
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 20:18:46 -0700
Subject: Re: Well, if we're going to do puzzles...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

You're right, Gordon.  I like your telling better.  As for the question you
asked.

s

p

o

i

l

e

r

"Are you the kind of computer that flashes red for yes?"

bytor


"Gordon G. Sollars" <gsollars@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.17c6d603102a0e7c9897fb@news.sff.net...
> Unfortunately no one knows which kind is which.  Smullyan sets a number
> of puzzles regarding these machines, such as "What yes/no question is
> such that the computer is bound to answer by flashing red regardless of
> what kind it is?"




------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21655
From: Michael P. Calligaro" 
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 20:21:59 -0700
Subject: Re: Well, if we're going to do puzzles...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

I hit send too quickly.  I don't understand how no one could know which kind
is which.

With any functioning computer.
Hold up a black card.
"Is this card black?"
"Are you Chinese?"

bytor

"Gordon G. Sollars" <gsollars@pobox.com> wrote in message
> There are two kinds of computers, Chinese and Japanese, that can
> infallibly answer any yes/no question.  One kind flashes a green light
> for "Yes" and a red light for "No"; the other does the reverse.
> Unfortunately no one knows which kind is which.



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21656
From: Gordon G. Sollars 
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 12:28:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Well, if we're going to do puzzles...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3d5dc155.0@news.sff.net>, Michael P. Calligaro writes...
> I hit send too quickly.  I don't understand how no one could know which kind
> is which.
> 
> With any functioning computer.
> Hold up a black card.
> "Is this card black?"
> "Are you Chinese?"

Now, now, let's not get practical.  No one knows /until/ they ask a 
question (and perhaps not even then, depending on the question).  The 
idea is that you get only /one/ question in each problem to be solved, 
and there is no question "history" for you to recall.

You are, of course, correct in your answer ("Does red mean 'yes'?").  Do 
you have the answer to the Smullyan analogue of your problem yet?  (It 
may be obvious to you, but I had to think a little to get from the answer 
to Smullyan's problem to yours.)

Also, Smullyan tacitly admits to the "unanswerable" response.  Here is 
his puzzle: Is there a yes/no question that it would be impossible for 
the computers to answer with either red or green?  

-- 
Gordon Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21657
From: Wayne Morgan 
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 13:33:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Cat problem - need advice
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

FWIW, we adopted a 2 yo female just prior to 9-11 to companion our elderly
female, who stroked out and died a month later.  We then adopted a
flame-point siamese male about the same age.  Both have been de-clawed.
They fight on a regular basis & it sounds like she's getting murdered.  But
we've watched her prance up to him and just bash him on the head, so we're
pretty sure they're just playing.  She's the territorial one when it comes
to other cats in the yard, but he's the bruiser when it comes to fighting.
All in all, they both display the same behaviors you described with your
cats and I second Bytor's opinion; if the little one starts getting beat up,
he'll hide whenever the other one is around...

Wayne Morgan

Al Carnali wrote:

> Thank you all for the great advise.  It's really help to ease my
> worries.
>
> The last time around I only had one cat in the house so I've never been
> through the turf wars that two cats seem to have.  It's still very weird
> seeing two animal declaring World War III each other one minute and then
> a few minutes later snuggled up together in the cat carrier.
>
> Thanks again.
>
>     - Al


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21658
From: Michael P. Calligaro" 
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 16:26:14 -0700
Subject: Re: Cat problem - need advice
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

That's interesting.  Mine are sisters, and Matty was the runt of the pack.
Tabs is extremely timid, and Matty is completely fearless and territorial.
BUT, with each other, Tabs is definitely domininant.  She pushes Matty aside
to eat, she more often than not instigates the battles, etc.  Sounds similar
to your two.

bytor

"Wayne Morgan" <morganwh@indy.net> wrote in message
news:3D5E970F.C652CFF8@indy.net...
>She's the territorial one when it comes
> to other cats in the yard, but he's the bruiser when it comes to fighting.




------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21659
From: Michael P. Calligaro" 
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 16:41:42 -0700
Subject: Re: Well, if we're going to do puzzles...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Interesting, I must have made a wrong assumption on my reading of your
retelling.  I assumed that it was the same problem, only told more clearly.
However, now that I think about it, I realize that you mean that I don't
know if the computers in the store are red == yes computers or not.  Do I at
least know that they're all the same kind (ie two Japanese and a
malfuctioning) or could there be a malfunctioning, a chinese, and a japanese
computer there?


As for unanswerable questions, there are many, but anything that asks to
predict the future is likely.  Hold up a normal quarter and say, "If I flip
this, will it come up heads?"  But, if they're oracles and not computers,
maybe those will work.  In that case, you fall back to logic paradoxes like,
"Is this sentence false?"

bytor

"Gordon G. Sollars" <gsollars@pobox.com> wrote in message
> you have the answer to the Smullyan analogue of your problem yet?  (It
> may be obvious to you, but I had to think a little to get from the answer
> to Smullyan's problem to yours.)
>
> Also, Smullyan tacitly admits to the "unanswerable" response.  Here is
> his puzzle: Is there a yes/no question that it would be impossible for
> the computers to answer with either red or green?




------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21660
From: Gordon G. Sollars 
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 22:16:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Well, if we're going to do puzzles...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3d5edf32.0@news.sff.net>, Michael P. Calligaro writes...
> Interesting, I must have made a wrong assumption on my reading of your
> retelling.  I assumed that it was the same problem, only told more clearly.
> However, now that I think about it, I realize that you mean that I don't
> know if the computers in the store are red == yes computers or not.  Do I at
> least know that they're all the same kind (ie two Japanese and a
> malfuctioning) or could there be a malfunctioning, a chinese, and a japanese
> computer there?

Could be three/zero or two/one Chinese to Japanese, or the other way 
around.  All you know is that only one is malfunctioning.  Smullyan is a 
fiendish puzzler.
  
> As for unanswerable questions, there are many, but anything that asks to
> predict the future is likely.  Hold up a normal quarter and say, "If I flip
> this, will it come up heads?"  But, if they're oracles and not computers,
> maybe those will work.  In that case, you fall back to logic paradoxes like,
> "Is this sentence false?"

True, but there is at least one question that is not /quite/ so self-
referential that will stump either machine. 

-- 
Gordon Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21661
From: Wayne Morgan 
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 23:51:53 -0500
Subject: Re: Cat problem - need advice
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Yeah, but he is definitely the dominant one in the relationship. He's the most
muscular siamese we've ever seen (and I've been around siamese cats for most of
40 years). It's got to be that he was brought up with dogs...he even goes up and
down stairs like a dog and is the only cat I've ever seen who _wags_ his tail.
Knocks stuff off the shelves with that tail...

On the other hand, he is also the most easily startled.  Not sure why that is.

"Michael P. Calligaro" wrote:

> That's interesting.  Mine are sisters, and Matty was the runt of the pack.
> Tabs is extremely timid, and Matty is completely fearless and territorial.
> BUT, with each other, Tabs is definitely domininant.  She pushes Matty aside
> to eat, she more often than not instigates the battles, etc.  Sounds similar
> to your two.
>
> bytor
>
> "Wayne Morgan" <morganwh@indy.net> wrote in message
> news:3D5E970F.C652CFF8@indy.net...
> >She's the territorial one when it comes
> > to other cats in the yard, but he's the bruiser when it comes to fighting.


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21662
From: Ed Johnson 
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 15:53:32 -0400
Subject: Re: My latest Lazarus impression...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Cpl Ted:    What - nobody said "welcome back"?

It's good to see your pixels again.

Ed J

On Tue, 13 Aug 2002 12:49:24 -0600, "Clay Steiner"
<claysteiner@SPAMTHIS.prodigy.net> wrote:

>Not that one, but the original back-from-the-dead guy. You know, from that
>other book... <G>.
>
>So, fer the first time in my computing life, I actually own a brand new
>machine. And like most folks will do with a new car, I'm driving it to one
>of my very favorite places first thing and hoping that some friends are
>there, for showing-off purposes. Except in my case I'm not showing off how
>pretty or fast my new car is, so much as I am comparing it to my old (old
>_squared_) Mac and saying, "Lookee -- it actually has an engine in it!"
>
>Got me a desktop Sony Vaio, I did -- Windows XP Home, 1.3 GHz Celeron
>processor, 40 GB HD, 256 MB RAM expandable to 512 MB,  CD-RW and DVD-ROM
>drives, etc.
>
>I'd hang around longer, but I'm due at the airport side-job soon. I'll
>likely cruise back by here tonight -- there's much to catch up on. Heads up
>to Bytor and/or Filksinger: I'll probably be asking for guidance soon on
>transferring some old files from the clunker, chief among them my novel and
>stories written with MS Word for Mac (version ?, using OS 8)  into
>WordPerfect 10, and my Outlook address book.
>
>As always, it's good to be back at the old hangout. See you again late
>tonight (after midnight MDT).
>
>Clay/Cpl Ted
>


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21663
From: Tom Royce" 
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 21:55:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Cat problem - need advice
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

David

I loved your comments on the cat. I grew up with a 20 lb Maine Coon Cat. He
adopted us as a kitten, his crying was so annoying to my Dad's hangover that
he earned the name Tiny Tim for the acclaimed Ukalale player...

He was territorial, earning the nickname "Good Dog Tim", due to his habit of
sitting just outside of the front door and warning all that they were
entering his territory. He also took on a 80 lb German Shepard and we never
saw that neighbors dog again in our yard... However, when in the house, he
always was in someones lap. What a great cat. If you ever are looking for a
cat, check out a Maine Coon, you will not go wrong.

Tom


"David M. Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:3D5B6750.3000309@verizon.net...
>
>
> Al Carnali wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> I wouldn't worry much about Newt seriously injuring Pinky at this stage.
> Except for my present Bob, my experience is limited to observations of
> other cats owned by my family. Mother kept cats about thirty years,
> usually two or more. So has my sister. One ordinarily establishes
> dominance, irrespective of gender and whatever alterations are made in
> reproductive abilities; she or he owns the house, the others live under
> the beds or in the corners or venture forth at the discretion of the
> dominant one. Unless you introduce two mature cats to each other, they
> usually do not hurt each other.
>
> There are some cats you cannot introduce other cats to without expecting
> trouble. They are too aggressive and territorial; and you have to watch
> them to protect them. I currently have one, a short haired black altered
> (not by me) tom, rather small like a Burmese, but about half filled out
> (as if he almost reached maturity before they disconnected his spark
> plugs), but very aggressive under certain circumstances. He showed up at
> my trash cans in the alley one day for about three weeks and ordered us,
> in no uncertain terms, to adopt and feed him every time someone was out
> there until we complied with his wishes. He was about two, maybe three,
> when he showed up, so his habits are developed and pretty well fixed. It
> does not seem to have penetrated his flat bumpy head that he is altered.
> He's about six or seven now. He will attack, seriously, any cat, any
> size, any gender and any condition that intrudes in his territory; and
> he will attack any small or young dog he thinks he can intimidate. He
> kills tree rats (palm rats we call them out here in La-La land), mice,
> birds, and I think he killed an opossum I found in the front yard about
> twice his size. He seemed rather proud and excited when he called and
> dragged me down to see it. There was absolutely no way he could drag
> that thing into the house, as he is wont to do with other victims, some
> not quite yet deceased. Watch out if you live in snake country with one
> like this. He will hide from and stalk strange humans who enter his
> territory. He hisses at humans who bear the scent of other cats. He's a
> little more domesticated around humans than he used to be--but not much.
> Ever see a cat stalk the mailman from above way up in a tree? From
> branch to branch right above the mailman about thirty feet? We do not
> have nesting birds around, needless to say. He is not a real social cat
> with humans or other beasts. Exception: he had what I think was a
> sibling he would permit to lay about in the yard or on the cement
> parking spaces for a year or so, and very occasionally let in the cat
> door to share his food or water. The probable sibling simply stopped
> showing up one day, as is the fate of alley cats always. The only thing
> you can do, if you have one like this, or if Newt develops this way, is
> listen whenever you let him out, and immediately get out there if you
> hear a fight start and grab him. By the time I get down there usually,
> it's over and the other one is long gone; but occasionally I find Bob
> practically standing atop the other, fur swelled up to make him seem
> about twice the puny little size he really is, with the intruder in a
> completely subservient position, flat with feet tucked in and head down,
> dead silent, usually with its collar, if it had one, torn off. If they
> are serious they go for the neck with teeth; and obviously for the belly
> with the hind raking claws judging from that flat belly protection
> posture I occasionally find intruders. He has and will mark any fence
> corner post I put up, or corner or boundary tree, claw the hell out of
> it, as high as he can, and really scrape it down. That is his
> territorial declaration! I, Master of All I Survey, live here. Stay off.
>
> Unless Newt starts developing these modes of character and attack you
> probably don't have a problem, having another cat around so long as it
> is the same age and you introduce them as kittens. Mock fight is play
> and training for the future.
>
> Of course, disclaimer, my experience as first hand caretaker is limited
> to this one strange little aggressive used-to-be-(I think)-an unaltered
> young but mature tom. Never had another cat because we always had dogs
> before the kid grew up. I always had an affinity for stray toms,
> however. Mother would never let me keep them. But it was fun to watch
> all the strays in the neighborhood turn out to be the same color as the
> dominant tom after a while. For about twenty years, practically all the
> strays in a neighborhood near the beach when I lived were vividly and
> oddly marked orange tabbies -- and that strain hung around for at least
> four generations after the tom showed up -- would have been nice to
> imagine Pixel somehow made it down here from Santa Cruz after Ginny had
> to leave him with neighbors who were their friends, and he thereafter
> disappeared one day, after they left for Carmel and then Ginny moved to
> the Southeast US after Robert died.
>
> Regards,
> David
>
>
>



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21664
From: David M. Silver" 
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 19:25:44 -0700
Subject: Re: Cat problem - need advice
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum



Tom Royce wrote:

> David
> 
> I loved your comments on the cat. I grew up with a 20 lb Maine Coon Cat. He
> adopted us as a kitten, his crying was so annoying to my Dad's hangover that
> he earned the name Tiny Tim for the acclaimed Ukalale player...
> 
> He was territorial, earning the nickname "Good Dog Tim", due to his habit of
> sitting just outside of the front door and warning all that they were
> entering his territory. He also took on a 80 lb German Shepard and we never
> saw that neighbors dog again in our yard... However, when in the house, he
> always was in someones lap. What a great cat. If you ever are looking for a
> cat, check out a Maine Coon, you will not go wrong.


Thank you, Tom. I enjoyed yours as well. See,

http://afhpics.mnsdesigns.com/bob2.html

for His Magnificence, in his usual lurk mode, looking for someone to 
jump upon.

David


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21665
From: filksinger@earthling.net
Date: 20 Aug 2002 14:53:15 GMT
Subject: Re: Well, if we're going to do puzzles...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Gordon Sollars wrote:
"> As for unanswerable questions, there are many, but anything that asks
to
> predict the future is likely.  Hold up a normal quarter and say, "If I
flip
> this, will it come up heads?"  But, if they're oracles and not computers,
> maybe those will work.  In that case, you fall back to logic paradoxes
like,
> "Is this sentence false?"

True, but there is at least one question that is not /quite/ so self-
referential that will stump either machine."

I don't have time to even look these over thoroughly most days, but that
one is a snap. "Is it true that the next thing you flash will stand for
the negative?"
-- 
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21666
From: Gordon G. Sollars 
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 17:28:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Well, if we're going to do puzzles...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3d6257db.0@news.sff.net>, filksinger@earthling.net writes...
> Gordon Sollars wrote:
> "> As for unanswerable questions, there are many, but anything that asks
> to
> > predict the future is likely.  Hold up a normal quarter and say, "If I
> flip
> > this, will it come up heads?"  But, if they're oracles and not computers,
> > maybe those will work.  In that case, you fall back to logic paradoxes
> like,
> > "Is this sentence false?"
> 
> True, but there is at least one question that is not /quite/ so self-
> referential that will stump either machine."
> 
> I don't have time to even look these over thoroughly most days, but that
> one is a snap. "Is it true that the next thing you flash will stand for
> the negative?"

Good choice!  This buries the self-reference rather nicely.  Smullyan 
gives, "Does the color that you answer to this question mean 'no'?", but 
that is a question that, like bytor's, explicitly refers to itself.
 
-- 
Gordon Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21667
From: Michael P. Calligaro" 
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 21:48:35 -0700
Subject: Re: Well, if we're going to do puzzles...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

I've been offline a few days and will be offline again for a week.  But I'll
think about this.  Damn, what a mess.  (-:  (That's a good thing, of
course...)

bytor

"Gordon G. Sollars" <gsollars@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.17c8cd9d9e81d2109897fd@news.sff.net...
> Could be three/zero or two/one Chinese to Japanese, or the other way
> around.  All you know is that only one is malfunctioning.  Smullyan is a
> fiendish puzzler.




------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21668
From: Clay Steiner" 
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 01:00:54 -0600
Subject: Re: My latest Lazarus impression...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Ed Johnson" <eljohn2@comcast.spamthis.net > wrote in message
news:h4j2mu01et8eug4405ss6t9ee0hit7ieqj@4ax.com...
> Cpl Ted:    What - nobody said "welcome back"?
>
> It's good to see your pixels again.
>
> Ed J
>

Well, now _you_ have. <g>

And thanks for doing so -- I haven't seen a new post appear here for 2-3
days, and was beginning to wonder if I bungled my Outlook settings. Guess I
chose a slow week.

Clay/Cpl Ted



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21669
From: William Jennings" 
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 10:21:50 -0500
Subject: Jerry Was A Man
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Something of interest.

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/rossmackenzie/rm20020821.shtml



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21670
From: filksinger@earthling.net
Date: 21 Aug 2002 17:56:36 GMT
Subject: Activate Deflector Screens
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Well, it isn't deflector screens yet, but the British have developed electric
anti-shaped charge "shields".

http://www.washtimes.com/world/20020820-86081662.htm
-- 
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21671
From: Ed Johnson 
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 22:20:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Activate Deflector Screens
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

FS:  Way cool article!   Not exactly a force shield, but anything
that saves the lives of the crew is a jolly good show.

Ed

On 21 Aug 2002 17:56:36 GMT, filksinger@earthling.net wrote:

>Well, it isn't deflector screens yet, but the British have developed electric
>anti-shaped charge "shields".
>
>http://www.washtimes.com/world/20020820-86081662.htm


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21672
From: Michael P Calligaro" 
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 11:28:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Well, if we're going to do puzzles...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

I'm still away, but I was able to get on from here.  I was thinking about
this last night.
<spoilers>

The "aha" for the originial problem was to realize that, no matter what, you
couldn't do anything with what the faulty computer said.  And, since you
couldn't be fully sure with one question which one was the faulty computer,
this meant that you couldn't even consider buying the computer you asked the
question of.  That way, you could do what it said.  If it was lying, it
didn't matter because you weren't buying it anyway, and the other two had to
be working.

The further "aha" for Gordon's improvement on the problem is that it doesn't
matter if you've got a mix of computers or not.  Since you're only going to
ask a question to one of them, all that matters is that you don't know how
the one you're asking is going to answer.  The "polarity" of the other two
doesn't matter.

But this problem is harder than the original, because you don't know whether
the answer the computer gave meant "yes" or "no."

Still, it's just a tweak on the other problem.  You still ask computer A a
question and then buy B or C depending on his answer.  The malfunctioning vs
working computer logic is the same.  The new trick is to figure out what he
MEANT when he answered green...

So, here's how I'd pose the question to computer A:
"Please answer in the affirmative if it is the case that to you green means
yes and computer B is working or if to you red means yes and computer B is
not working."
Then, if he answers green, buy B.  If he answers red, buy C.

In the case where green means yes and B is working, he'll answer yes
(green).  In the case where red means yes and B is not working, he'll answer
yes (red).  In the case where green means yes and B is not working, he'll
answer no (red).  And in the case where red means yes and B is working,
he'll answer no (green).

bytor

"Michael P. Calligaro" <bytor@mystikeep.com> wrote in message
news:3d631b9b.0@news.sff.net...
> I've been offline a few days and will be offline again for a week.  But
I'll
> think about this.  Damn, what a mess.  (-:  (That's a good thing, of
> course...)




------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21673
From: filksinger@earthling.net
Date: 22 Aug 2002 17:44:07 GMT
Subject: Re: Well, if we're going to do puzzles...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Bytor replied:
"I'm still away, but I was able to get on from here.  I was thinking about
this last night.
"

AARRGGHH!! I solved this one last night, and, apparently, it is still in
my outbox at home, so bytor beat me!
-- 
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21674
From: filksinger@earthling.net
Date: 22 Aug 2002 18:38:40 GMT
Subject: Pleistocene Park
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

It may not be dinosaurs, but it is also a lot more likely.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/TechTV/techtv_mammothclone020822.html
-- 
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21675
From: filksinger@earthling.net
Date: 22 Aug 2002 19:00:42 GMT
Subject: Official US Army Video Games
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Apparently, the US Army has decided to produce free games not only showing
gamers what it is like to be in an actual assault with the US Army, but
also what it is like to be in the Army when _not_ in combat.

www.americasarmy.com
-- 
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21676
From: filksinger@earthling.net
Date: 22 Aug 2002 19:05:00 GMT
Subject: Going Out With A Bang
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Apparently, a 72-year-old Berlin playboy has found a way to get women to
keep sleeping with him. He leaves enough to by a decent house to the last
woman he made love to in his will.

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/BackPage/reuters20020821_175.html

Hmmm....

Naw.
--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21677
From: Eli Hestermann 
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 15:53:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Going Out With A Bang
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Hopefully he's specified that the death must be of natural causes.

filksinger@earthling.net wrote:

> Apparently, a 72-year-old Berlin playboy has found a way to get women to
> keep sleeping with him. He leaves enough to by a decent house to the last
> woman he made love to in his will.
>
> http://abcnews.go.com/wire/BackPage/reuters20020821_175.html
>
> Hmmm....
>
> Naw.
> --
> Filksinger
> AKA David Nasset, Sr.
> Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined

--
Eli V. Hestermann
Eli_Hestermann@dfci.harvard.edu
"Vita brevis est, ars longa."  -Seneca



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21678
From: David M. Silver" 
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 15:04:51 -0700
Subject: Last Call -- Heinlein Memorial Dinner at ConJose
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

We are currently one week and one day off.

I have 32 confirmed reservations, including a number of authors and 
others we have invited as guests of The Heinlein Society, to the dinner 
we will be holding on Friday, August 30, 2002, commencing at 6:30 PM 
with a cocktail and hors d'oeuvrs serving at the Eulipia Restaurant, 
within a block of the Convention Center. I have a few guest invitations 
pending but not confirmed, and a couple or two maybes. That puts me at 
about forty, if all the blocks fall into place.

That means there are about ten comfortable seats available, at the 
$50/plate restaurant price that we are directly passing on to any 
interested reader of Heinlein, member of the Society or not. The room 
will hold sixty.

If you wish to attend, and I urge you to do so, because of many reasons, 
including some of the small limited program items we will present, 
please let me know, ASAP, so a reservation in your name may be honored.

Some of the judges of the newly announced Heinlein Award for writing 
will be attending; and we have a couple other surprises for attendees.

If you need to see the menu, use google.com under alt.fan.heinlein, or 
see whether the earlier post containing the menu I made here remains. 
Any other questions, e-mail me please.

This is the absolutely Last Call.

David M. Silver
Secretary-Treasurer
The Heinlein Society
www.heinleinsociety.org


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21679
From: noone" 
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 00:31:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Official US Army Video Games
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

that was announced a couple of months back, i'm not a "gamer" but i signed
up for the cd, i'm still waiting. they have a forum online and i've already
seen the wannabee set wanting all the hollywood toys before the game is even
distributed, "sin loi", they'll have to play this one with to&e weapons and
gear and real life limits on ammo expenditure. spray and pray won't cut it.
when/if the cd set arrives i'll be interested to see how close to reality it
does get.
"gunner"
--------------
<filksinger@earthling.net> wrote in message news:3d6534da.0@news.sff.net...
> Apparently, the US Army has decided to produce free games not only showing
> gamers what it is like to be in an actual assault with the US Army, but
> also what it is like to be in the Army when _not_ in combat.
>
> www.americasarmy.com
> --
> Filksinger
> AKA David Nasset, Sr.
> Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
>



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21680
From: Gordon G. Sollars 
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 10:36:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Going Out With A Bang
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3D654143.E915CEC3@dfci.harvard.edu>, Eli Hestermann writes...
> Hopefully he's specified that the death must be of natural causes.

Well, even that might not get it quite right, but, at least he could say, 
"What a way to go!".
 
> filksinger@earthling.net wrote:
> 
> > Apparently, a 72-year-old Berlin playboy has found a way to get women to
> > keep sleeping with him. He leaves enough to by a decent house to the last
> > woman he made love to in his will.
> >
> > http://abcnews.go.com/wire/BackPage/reuters20020821_175.html
> >
> > Hmmm....
> >
> > Naw.

As with so many great ideas, the devil is in the details!  Absent what I 
will call "Eli's solution", how is any one of them to prove that she was 
the last?

-- 
Gordon Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21681
From: Gordon G. Sollars 
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 10:45:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Well, if we're going to do puzzles...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3d650323.1@news.sff.net>, Michael P Calligaro writes...
> I'm still away, but I was able to get on from here.  I was thinking about
> this last night.
> <spoilers>
....
> So, here's how I'd pose the question to computer A:
> "Please answer in the affirmative if it is the case that to you green means
> yes and computer B is working or if to you red means yes and computer B is
> not working."
> Then, if he answers green, buy B.  If he answers red, buy C.
> 
> In the case where green means yes and B is working, he'll answer yes
> (green).  In the case where red means yes and B is not working, he'll answer
> yes (red).  In the case where green means yes and B is not working, he'll
> answer no (red).  And in the case where red means yes and B is working,
> he'll answer no (green).

You da man, bytor!  (Filk, too, apparently.)  But it turns out that there 
is a much more compact question that encodes the same thing.


Spoiler


Spoiler


Spoiler


Spoiler


Spoiler


Ask A, "When asked whether B is good, do you answer with green?"


-- 
Gordon Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21682
From: David M. Silver" 
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 08:00:09 -0700
Subject: Re: Going Out With A Bang
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum



Gordon G. Sollars wrote:

> In article <3D654143.E915CEC3@dfci.harvard.edu>, Eli Hestermann writes...
> 
>>Hopefully he's specified that the death must be of natural causes.
>>
> 
> Well, even that might not get it quite right, but, at least he could say, 
> "What a way to go!".
>  
> 
>>filksinger@earthling.net wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Apparently, a 72-year-old Berlin playboy has found a way to get women to
>>>keep sleeping with him. He leaves enough to by a decent house to the last
>>>woman he made love to in his will.
>>>
>>>http://abcnews.go.com/wire/BackPage/reuters20020821_175.html
>>>
>>>Hmmm....
>>>
>>>Naw.
>>>
> 
> As with so many great ideas, the devil is in the details!  Absent what I 
> will call "Eli's solution", how is any one of them to prove that she was 
> the last?


Forgive me for being crass, Gordon and forum, but each she hires a video 
cameraman, complete with date and time indicator on. The losers can sell 
their stale evidence to the Internet sites that keep spamming me with 
stupidly titled E-mail offers. Should be a good number of markets.

David



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21683
From: Eli Hestermann 
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 11:45:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Going Out With A Bang
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

"Gordon G. Sollars" wrote:

> In article <3D654143.E915CEC3@dfci.harvard.edu>, Eli Hestermann writes...
> > Hopefully he's specified that the death must be of natural causes.
>
> Well, even that might not get it quite right, but, at least he could say,
> "What a way to go!".

If you read the article, that's exactly his intent, to come and go, so to speak.

Actually, I was thinking of more overt murder.

--
Eli V. Hestermann
Eli_Hestermann@dfci.harvard.edu
"Vita brevis est, ars longa."  -Seneca



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21684
From: Eli Hestermann 
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 11:46:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Going Out With A Bang
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

"David M. Silver" wrote:

> Gordon G. Sollars wrote:
>
> > As with so many great ideas, the devil is in the details!  Absent what I
> > will call "Eli's solution", how is any one of them to prove that she was
> > the last?
>
> Forgive me for being crass, Gordon and forum, but each she hires a video
> cameraman, complete with date and time indicator on. The losers can sell
> their stale evidence to the Internet sites that keep spamming me with
> stupidly titled E-mail offers. Should be a good number of markets.

From what I read of the personality of the man in question, I wouldn't be
surprised if he keeps a film library.

--
Eli V. Hestermann
Eli_Hestermann@dfci.harvard.edu
"Vita brevis est, ars longa."  -Seneca



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21685
From: Gordon G. Sollars 
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 12:40:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Going Out With A Bang
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3D66588E.5F90C88C@dfci.harvard.edu>, Eli Hestermann writes...
> "Gordon G. Sollars" wrote:
> 
> > In article <3D654143.E915CEC3@dfci.harvard.edu>, Eli Hestermann writes...
> > > Hopefully he's specified that the death must be of natural causes.
> >
> > Well, even that might not get it quite right, but, at least he could say,
> > "What a way to go!".
> 
> If you read the article, that's exactly his intent, to come and go, so to speak.
> 
> Actually, I was thinking of more overt murder.

That's what my "even" was meant to address.  But apparently he is wise 
enough not to want to live forever.  ;-)

I have an acquaintance who won a large copyright judgment against a video 
game company for using his likeness without permission.  He decided to 
retire, bought a large house, and went to see a lawyer to discuss some 
financial details.  He also brought his girlfriend along.  At one point, 
she asked the lawyer, "What happens when /he/ dies?".

The girl friend's bags were packed before the end of the day.  

-- 
Gordon Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21686
From: David M. Silver" 
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 09:55:05 -0700
Subject: Re: Going Out With A Bang
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum



Eli Hestermann wrote:

> "David M. Silver" wrote:
> 
> 
>>Gordon G. Sollars wrote:
>>
>>
>>>As with so many great ideas, the devil is in the details!  Absent what I
>>>will call "Eli's solution", how is any one of them to prove that she was
>>>the last?
>>>
>>Forgive me for being crass, Gordon and forum, but each she hires a video
>>cameraman, complete with date and time indicator on. The losers can sell
>>their stale evidence to the Internet sites that keep spamming me with
>>stupidly titled E-mail offers. Should be a good number of markets.
>>
> 
> From what I read of the personality of the man in question, I wouldn't be
> surprised if he keeps a film library.
> 
I'm not surprised, Eli. But Gordon's query was nicely posed, wasn't it? 


I forgot to observe that, and should not have forgotten. ;)


David




------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21687
From: Eli Hestermann 
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 13:05:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Going Out With A Bang
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

"Gordon G. Sollars" wrote:

> I have an acquaintance who won a large copyright judgment against a video
> game company for using his likeness without permission.  He decided to
> retire, bought a large house, and went to see a lawyer to discuss some
> financial details.  He also brought his girlfriend along.  At one point,
> she asked the lawyer, "What happens when /he/ dies?".
>
> The girl friend's bags were packed before the end of the day.

And how much money did your acquaintance come into from the lawyer following this
malpractice?

--
Eli V. Hestermann
Eli_Hestermann@dfci.harvard.edu
"Vita brevis est, ars longa."  -Seneca



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21688
From: David M. Silver" 
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 10:06:35 -0700
Subject: Re: Going Out With A Bang
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum



Gordon G. Sollars wrote:

[snip]
> 
> I have an acquaintance who won a large copyright judgment against a video 
> game company for using his likeness without permission. 


You don't happen to know if there's a "public figure" exception to that 
legal theory, do you, Gordon? I've been thinking about a game where the 
player gets to shoot, smash-down, blow-up, and otherwise destroy an 
endless series of figures made in the image of a certain well-known Bill 
from a suburb of Seattle in Washington State. Of course the market might 
be limited to only five percent of computer users. . . or perhaps not. ;-)


David
[Not looking to restart the platform wars. Just trying to provoke mild 
amusement on a long week ending with a tired Friday.]




------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21689
From: Gordon G. Sollars 
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 17:00:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Going Out With A Bang
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3D666B47.ECCF3595@dfci.harvard.edu>, Eli Hestermann writes...
> "Gordon G. Sollars" wrote:
> 
> > I have an acquaintance who won a large copyright judgment against a video
> > game company for using his likeness without permission.  He decided to
> > retire, bought a large house, and went to see a lawyer to discuss some
> > financial details.  He also brought his girlfriend along.  At one point,
> > she asked the lawyer, "What happens when /he/ dies?".
> >
> > The girl friend's bags were packed before the end of the day.
> 
> And how much money did your acquaintance come into from the lawyer following this
> malpractice?

Perhaps because it's my nap time, I'm having a little trouble sorting the 
meaning of this one out, Eli.

-- 
Gordon Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21690
From: Gordon G. Sollars 
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 17:17:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Going Out With A Bang
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3D666B9B.3030101@verizon.net>, David M. Silver writes...
....
> You don't happen to know if there's a "public figure" exception to that 
> legal theory, do you, Gordon?

My acquaintance was arguably a public figure in Japan, which was why the 
company picked /his/ likeness.

As you might remember from a rather unfortunate incident on a.f.h 
(involving my failure to read a signature line), I have a general 
interest in intellectual property law.  But I can't begin to quote the 
case law.

-- 
Gordon Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21691
From: David M. Silver" 
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 16:07:02 -0700
Subject: Re: Going Out With A Bang
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum



Gordon G. Sollars wrote:

> In article <3D666B9B.3030101@verizon.net>, David M. Silver writes...
> ...
> 
>>You don't happen to know if there's a "public figure" exception to that 
>>legal theory, do you, Gordon?
>>
> 
> My acquaintance was arguably a public figure in Japan, which was why the 
> company picked /his/ likeness.


Incredible line of cases! I suppose then, had it existed just post 
Watergate, those Halloween caricatured rubber masks of RMN would have 
had to withstand litigation because they didn't have 
"I-Am-Not-A-Crook"'s permission. No get to the hidden inner room within 
rooms and find the embezzled treasure in Kenneth Lay's palatial resort 
in the Bahamas game, for the laid off inhabitants of Houston or the 
newly tax burdened residents of California this year, eh? Seems to me as 
if a strange balance is being struck between free speech and political 
comment and 'privacy rights' of the rich and famous. That decision might 
tempt a software games company to produce a real doozy and give it away 
free bundled to an old copy of Pong, to really generate a nice test case 
to destroy the line. Considering the majority on the current Supremes, 
the scenario could be 'protect your wife or girlfriend' from an endless 
series of job interviews by Bubbah Clintons.

Can you imagine Scalia having to hold his nose while he writes (or tells 
Thomas what to write in) the decision upholding the right to privacy of 
the rich and famous; or do you think Scalia would carve out a 'limited' 
exception in this hypo?


> 
> As you might remember from a rather unfortunate incident on a.f.h 
> (involving my failure to read a signature line), I have a general 
> interest in intellectual property law.  But I can't begin to quote the 
> case law.


No, actually and seriously I don't remember. Less seriously, we never 
have unfortunately incidents on a.f.h. It's just another part of the 
charm and atmosphere. ;-P


David


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21692
From: Eli Hestermann 
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 05:24:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Going Out With A Bang
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

"Gordon G. Sollars" wrote:

> In article <3D666B47.ECCF3595@dfci.harvard.edu>, Eli Hestermann writes...
> > "Gordon G. Sollars" wrote:
> >
> > > I have an acquaintance who won a large copyright judgment against a video
> > > game company for using his likeness without permission.  He decided to
> > > retire, bought a large house, and went to see a lawyer to discuss some
> > > financial details.  He also brought his girlfriend along.  At one point,
> > > she asked the lawyer, "What happens when /he/ dies?".
> > >
> > > The girl friend's bags were packed before the end of the day.
> >
> > And how much money did your acquaintance come into from the lawyer following this
> > malpractice?
>
> Perhaps because it's my nap time, I'm having a little trouble sorting the
> meaning of this one out, Eli.

I suspect it had more to do with my reading and writing on a Friday afternoon, when a
nap would've been salutary for me as well. [g]  Now that I've slept and have coffee in
hand...

I presumed that the lawyer revealed the terms of a will to the girlfriend, without
prior permission.  Reading it again, I see any discussion of a will was my assumption -
the lawyer could've been explaining inheritance laws in general terms.

--
Eli V. Hestermann
ehestermann@tmlp.com
"Vita brevis est, ars longa" - Seneca



------------------------------------------------------------

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