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Archive of:   sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Archive desc: The Internet home for the Heinlein Forum
Archived by:  webnews@sff.net
Archive date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:55:17
============================================================

Article 22575
From: William J. Keaton" 
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 01:01:51 -0400
Subject: Re: John Varley
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net> wrote in message
news:3effe404.0@news.sff.net...
> William J. Keaton wrote:
> <snip>
> > What are we to make of John Varley? What is there to his "thing" with
> > Heinlein? Has he crossed the line between homage and theft? Or is it
> > just that he hasn't quite obscured the serial number on this story?
>
> I would definitely call that a homage rather than theft, unless there are
> Nazis (Commies?) on Mars, preparing to attack the Earth, or a human on
Mars
> named Smith with strange powers. In that event, I'll reserve judgement.


There are Commie Chinese, and others seeking to reach Mars first. And I'm
not sure what plot twists befall our heroes on Mars or enroute.

WJaKe



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22576
From: Robert Slater" 
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 09:11:25 -0700
Subject: Education Research Heinlein tie-in
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

From a WIRED interview with Steven Jobs of Apple.  1996.

GROKKING DESIGN

You have a reputation for making well-designed products. Why aren't more
products made with the aesthetics of great design?

Design is a funny word. Some people think design means how it looks. But of
course, if you dig deeper, it's really how it works. The design of the Mac
wasn't what it looked like, although that was part of it. Primarily, it was
how it worked. To desig n something really well, you have to get it. You
have to really grok what it's all about. It takes a passionate commitment to
really thoroughly understand something, chew it up, not just quickly swallow
it. Most people don't take the time to do that.

SIFI Rob



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22577
From: Filksinger" 
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 11:33:50 -0700
Subject: Re: John Varley
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

William J. Keaton wrote:
> "Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net> wrote in message
> news:3effe404.0@news.sff.net...
>> William J. Keaton wrote:
>> <snip>
>>> What are we to make of John Varley? What is there to his "thing"
>>> with Heinlein? Has he crossed the line between homage and theft? Or
>>> is it just that he hasn't quite obscured the serial number on this
>>> story?
>>
>> I would definitely call that a homage rather than theft, unless
>> there are Nazis (Commies?) on Mars, preparing to attack the Earth,
>> or a human on Mars named Smith with strange powers. In that event,
>> I'll reserve judgement.
>
>
> There are Commie Chinese, and others seeking to reach Mars first. And
> I'm not sure what plot twists befall our heroes on Mars or enroute.

Which would seem to indicate it _wasn't_ a rip-off of any of the Heinlein
books it seems to reference. After all, nobody was racing to get to the Moon
first in Heinlein's books, as best I can recall. It was always someone who
had big dreams making a leap beyond everyone else, either because nobody
else had the technology, or nobody else had the foresight.
-- 
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22578
From: JT 
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 18:17:49 -0400
Subject: Re: For the D.C. contingent
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 23:48:40 -0500, "Dee" <ke4lfgDELETETHIS@amsat.org>
wrote:
>Hi, all--
>
>    I am planning a trip to D.C. next month with my mother and my niece, to
>do the tourist thing.  What are the chances of getting together?  We plan
>to arrive the evening of Saturday, 7/19, and stay through Wednesday.
>
>--Dee2
>
I had already posted to Dee privately that my chances aren't good, but
if the stars happen to align I will try and meet with the rest of you
if you plan something.  Keep me in the loop!

JT

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22579
From: jp@vrolyk.org (John Paul Vrolyk)
Date: 3 Jul 2003 21:03:45 GMT
Subject: Re: New arrival!
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Thanks to everyone for the well-wishing!  We're all doing pretty
well (though I'm now back in WA again for the moment).

(Oh yeah, if anyone on the east coast wants to see us before we
move out west for good, it would have to be before July 26, which
is when we fly away.)

JT wrote:
> Let us know when some pictures are out on the web somewhere!

http://www.vrolyk.org/virginia/

It's a rather bare-bones page just now, but there are a couple
of pictures there.

-- 
John Paul Vrolyk
jp@vrolyk.org

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22580
From: John Paul Vrolyk 
Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2003 06:33:19 -0700
Subject: Was beautiful.
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

I expected one of you east-coasters to have posted this nine
hours ago, you slackers!  :-)

=========================================================================

The Declaration of Independence of the Thirteen Colonies
 In CONGRESS, July 4, 1776 

 The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united
 States of America, 

 When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary
 for one people to dissolve the political bands which have
 connected them with another, and to assume among the
 powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which
 the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a
 decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they
 should declare the causes which impel them to the
 separation. 

 We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are
 created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with
 certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty
 and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights,
 Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just
 powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever
 any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends,
 it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to
 institute new Government, laying its foundation on such
 principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them
 shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
 Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long
 established should not be changed for light and transient
 causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that
 mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are
 sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms
 to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of
 abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object
 evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism,
 it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government,
 and to provide new Guards for their future security. --Such
 has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such
 is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their
 former Systems of Government. The history of the present
 King of Great Britain [George III] is a history of repeated
 injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the
 establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To
 prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world. 

 He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and
 necessary for the public good. 

 He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate
 and pressing importance, unless suspended in their
 operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so
 suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them. 

 He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of
 large districts of people, unless those people would
 relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a
 right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only. 

 He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual,
 uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their
 public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into
 compliance with his measures. 

 He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for
 opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of
 the people. 

 He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to
 cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers,
 incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at
 large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean
 time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without,
 and convulsions within. 

 He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these
 States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for
 Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to
 encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions
 of new Appropriations of Lands. 

 He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing
 his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers. 

 He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the
 tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their
 salaries. 

 He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither
 swarms of Officers to harass our people, and eat out their
 substance. 

 He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies
 without the consent of our legislatures. 

 He has affected to render the Military independent of and
 superior to the Civil power. 

 He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction
 foreign to our constitution and unacknowledged by our laws;
 giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation: 

 For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us: 

 For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for
 any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of
 these States: 

 For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world: 

 For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent: 

 For depriving us, in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by
 Jury: 

 For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended
 offences: 

 For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a
 neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary
 government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it
 at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the
 same absolute rule into these Colonies: 

 For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable
 Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our
 Governments: 

 For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring
 themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all
 cases whatsoever. 

 He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of
 his Protection and waging War against us. 

 He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our
 towns, and destroyed the lives of our people. 

 He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign
 Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and
 tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty and
 perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and
 totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation. 

 He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the
 high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the
 executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall
 themselves by their Hands. 

 He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has
 endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the
 merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an
 undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and
 conditions. 

 In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for
 Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions
 have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose
 character is thus marked by every act which may define a
 Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people. 

 Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British
 brethren. We have warned them from time to time of
 attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable
 jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the
 circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We
 have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and
 we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to
 disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt
 our connections and correspondence. They too have been
 deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must,
 therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our
 Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind,
 Enemies in War, in Peace Friends. 

 We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of
 America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the
 Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our
 intentions, do, in the Name, and by the Authority of the good
 People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That
 these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and
 Independent States; that they are Absolved from all
 Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political
 connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is
 and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and
 Independent States, they have full Power to levy War,
 conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and
 to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may
 of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a
 firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we
 mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and
 our sacred Honor. 

=========================================================================

-- 
John Paul Vrolyk
jp@vrolyk.org

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22581
From: JT 
Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2003 17:31:19 -0400
Subject: Re: New arrival!
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On 3 Jul 2003 21:03:45 GMT, jp@vrolyk.org (John Paul Vrolyk) wrote:


>JT wrote:
>> Let us know when some pictures are out on the web somewhere!
>
>http://www.vrolyk.org/virginia/
>
>It's a rather bare-bones page just now, but there are a couple
>of pictures there.

Well, that's visual confirmation of a beautiful child.  Not sure if
we'll be able to see you/her/all before you leave, but it's good to
know how much longer we have to try. :(

Life with two kids is at least -3x- harder, isn't it? (But still not
as big of an adjustment as going from none to one!) <knowing grin>

JT 

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22582
From: JT 
Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2003 17:33:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Was beautiful.
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Fri, 04 Jul 2003 06:33:19 -0700, John Paul Vrolyk <jp@vrolyk.org>
wrote:
>I expected one of you east-coasters to have posted this nine
>hours ago, you slackers!  :-)
>
It's always the adopted Americans that remember the most. <G,D,&R>

I was thinking about it this morning, but didn't have a chance to get
on the PC.

I did fly the flag today, though, and taught Daniel about "Happy
Birthday, America", so I guess I did something. ;)

JT

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22583
From: sbeck1@prodigy.net
Date: 7 Jul 2003 04:12:05 GMT
Subject: Re: New arrival!
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

I'm just poking my head in, after stumbling across Deb Houdek-Rule's page
and jumping here.  I was a member of the original Heinlein Forum on the
old Prodigy BBS back in the 1900s.

First order of business: I would like to add my congratulations upon the
arrival of the Vrolyks' new child. John Paul does not know who the heck
I am, as I've never had the honor to meet him, but I hope Les remembers
me from olden days.

Beautiful child. Beautiful name! Congratulations.

-- Steve Beck

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22584
From: sbeck1@prodigy.net
Date: 7 Jul 2003 04:32:22 GMT
Subject: Re: Space travel
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Personally, I'm pretty excited about the Rutan vehicle. If nothing else,
it will help de-mystique-afize (that's not the right word, but I forgot
the one I really wanted) space and show that it can be reached by old-fashioned
American entrepreneurship, and need not be a massive gov't program.  Yeah,
it's only suborbital, and it's not exactly a heavy-lift vehicle, but it's
a first step.

On a related topic, I recently finished reading _Project Orion: The True
Story of America's Atomic Spaceship_ by George Dyson, son of project member
Freeman Dyson. Interesting reading. You will remember the Orion concept:
a BIG spacecraft propelled by a series of exploding nuclear bombs. Until
reading this book, I never really appreciated the downsides of this promising
monster -- the scientists were particularly concerned about (1) what happens
if a bomb fails to detonate, especially while ascending from Earth? and
(2) how (or whether) to land the thing (since you would be descending into
an area where nukes were exploding every few seconds or so). Still, the
possibilities -- a hundred people to Mars in about three months! It makes
you cry to think that nothing was done with it, and probably will never
be.

-- Steve Beck


>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> I'm looking for your thoughts here, people.  The magazine also has a
>> picture of the Bert
>> Rutan re-usable sub orbital vehicle.  Airplane?  Spaceship?  I have
>> often thought that an air breathing launch stage was the way to go.
>
>My opinion is, if it gets you there, that's the way to go!
>
>WJaKe
>

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22585
From: JT 
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2003 16:45:57 -0400
Subject: Re: New arrival!
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On 7 Jul 2003 04:12:05 GMT, sbeck1@prodigy.net wrote:

>I'm just poking my head in, after stumbling across Deb Houdek-Rule's page
>and jumping here.  I was a member of the original Heinlein Forum on the
>old Prodigy BBS back in the 1900s.
>
Hey cobber!  The HF will always remember how you vouched for Cap'ns
Stew & WJaKe with The Law during the "improper use of Snack Foods"
episode.   :)

Things have changed a little, and there's a lot less posting, but once
in a while we get a good topic going here.  Alt.Fan.Heinlein on Usenet
attracts most of the "serious" posting these days, but even that is
"off-topic" as much as it is about Heinlein. ;)

I think there's at least a picture or two of you from that first
Gathering at the HF web site... <eg>
http://www.sff.net/people/HF/pix/1993.htm.

Good to see you back...what have you been up to lately?

(As for me, http://www.tildens.net/ will give you a decent idea.)

JT



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22586
From: Ed Johnson 
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2003 18:41:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Space travel
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Steve:    I am old enough to remember Orion with it's tiny nukes
providing repeated "kicks-itself-the-rear" propulsion <g>.  If you
wish to mourn a discontinued project: try looking up project NERVA.
That was canceled about 40 years ago (early sixties).  NERVA was
trying to get a high specific impulse from an engine with serious
thrust. (IIRC, 50,000 pounds thrust was achieved)  Spitting hot
(ionized) Xenon gas from an exhaust provides 4 times the spec.
impulse of our Hydrogen engines, but with a tiny thrust.  Good for
small, unmanned vehicles headed out to distant planets, not rapid,
manned exploration.

Ed J (2 cents)

On 7 Jul 2003 04:32:22 GMT, sbeck1@prodigy.net wrote:

>Personally, I'm pretty excited about the Rutan vehicle. If nothing else,
>it will help de-mystique-afize (that's not the right word, but I forgot
>the one I really wanted) space and show that it can be reached by old-fashioned
>American entrepreneurship, and need not be a massive gov't program.  Yeah,
>it's only suborbital, and it's not exactly a heavy-lift vehicle, but it's
>a first step.
>
>On a related topic, I recently finished reading _Project Orion: The True
>Story of America's Atomic Spaceship_ by George Dyson, son of project member
>Freeman Dyson. Interesting reading. You will remember the Orion concept:
>a BIG spacecraft propelled by a series of exploding nuclear bombs. Until
>reading this book, I never really appreciated the downsides of this promising
>monster -- the scientists were particularly concerned about (1) what happens
>if a bomb fails to detonate, especially while ascending from Earth? and
>(2) how (or whether) to land the thing (since you would be descending into
>an area where nukes were exploding every few seconds or so). Still, the
>possibilities -- a hundred people to Mars in about three months! It makes
>you cry to think that nothing was done with it, and probably will never
>be.
>
>-- Steve Beck
>
>
>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> I'm looking for your thoughts here, people.  The magazine also has a
>>> picture of the Bert
>>> Rutan re-usable sub orbital vehicle.  Airplane?  Spaceship?  I have
>>> often thought that an air breathing launch stage was the way to go.
>>
>>My opinion is, if it gets you there, that's the way to go!
>>
>>WJaKe
>>


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22587
From: Ed Johnson 
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2003 18:48:57 -0400
Subject: Re: New arrival!
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Steve:   I glad that JT said welcome back cobber!
  I just checked a print-out of the New Years' Eve, 1994 Prodigy HF
Roll Call and I didn't see your name.  You must be one of the old
timers <g> compared to a relative newcomer like myself.
    It's good to see your pixels around here.  We have JT to thank
for starting up this Internet home for the old Heinlein Forum.

Ed J



On 7 Jul 2003 04:12:05 GMT, sbeck1@prodigy.net wrote:

>I'm just poking my head in, after stumbling across Deb Houdek-Rule's page
>and jumping here.  I was a member of the original Heinlein Forum on the
>old Prodigy BBS back in the 1900s.
>
>First order of business: I would like to add my congratulations upon the
>arrival of the Vrolyks' new child. John Paul does not know who the heck
>I am, as I've never had the honor to meet him, but I hope Les remembers
>me from olden days.
>
>Beautiful child. Beautiful name! Congratulations.
>
>-- Steve Beck


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22588
From: William J. Keaton" 
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 01:50:57 -0400
Subject: Re: New arrival!
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"JT" <JT@REM0VE.sff.net> wrote in message
news:7hmjgvglc2aka9vo81icqso93l3kv0rtg2@4ax.com...
> On 7 Jul 2003 04:12:05 GMT, sbeck1@prodigy.net wrote:
>
> >I'm just poking my head in, after stumbling across Deb Houdek-Rule's page
> >and jumping here.  I was a member of the original Heinlein Forum on the
> >old Prodigy BBS back in the 1900s.
> >
> Hey cobber!  The HF will always remember how you vouched for Cap'ns
> Stew & WJaKe with The Law during the "improper use of Snack Foods"
> episode.   :)
>

Ghosts from my past! Good to see you popping in Steve, hope you can set a
spell.

And many thanks to JT for bringing up that minor naval infraction. What is
the statute of limitations on Snack Food-related crimes in Missouri?

WJaKe



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22589
From: Dee" 
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 11:42:37 -0500
Subject: Re: New arrival!
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

<sbeck1@prodigy.net> wrote in message news:3f08f315.0@news.sff.net...
> I'm just poking my head in, after stumbling across Deb Houdek-Rule's page
> and jumping here.  I was a member of the original Heinlein Forum on the
> old Prodigy BBS back in the 1900s.

    Good to see another old cobber.  HOpe all is well with you, adn you will
be around at least semi-regularly, now.

--Dee2



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22590
From: sbeck1@prodigy.net
Date: 9 Jul 2003 03:51:55 GMT
Subject: Thanks for the welcome
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Thanks for the welcome back! I guess all stray cats come back, sooner or
later. Nice to see so many familiar names. Yes, Dee, I hope to be around
on a semi-regular basis. "Semi-regular" is practically my middle name.

No major changes in life, really, just incremental improvement -- I'm doing
pretty much the same now as I did back then, only more of it. Still living
in St. Louis.

Thanks to JT and WJaKe for reminding me about our legal citation for "operating
above water craft in an unsafe manner" (as opposed to a submarine, we supposed).
I believe the statute of limitations has run out and you can again return
to Missouri, on condition that you abstain from knife-fighting. ("You mean
it was REAL?")

Ed Johnson, I think I remember you. At least, there's something familiar
about that name!  :) By 1994 I think I was still around on Prodigy HF. 
But my attendance may have been spotty and I might have missed a roll call.
I know I was pretty active in 1993, the year of the first Gathering. And
I stayed active until shortly after the 2nd Butler gathering, when we saw
this move ... uh... I think it was APOLLO 13? And that would have been 1995.
(Thank you, us.imdb.com.)

OK, I have to dash off, but I'll be back. See you all later.

-- Steve Beck

PS.  ED, I can't believe they canceled such a promising nuclear rocket program
back in the '60s.  Why, the NERVA those guys!

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22591
From: James R. Cunningham" 
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 03:10:35 -0700
Subject: Re: Thanks for the welcome
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

I'm off to Butler next Thursday and Friday.  Am curious to see if the
guy who owns the Heinlein home has sold it yet.  And whether the
Heinlein sign between town and the airport still needs a paint job.
JimC

sbeck1@prodigy.net wrote:
> 
> Thanks for the welcome back! I guess all stray cats come back, sooner or
> later. Nice to see so many familiar names. Yes, Dee, I hope to be around
> on a semi-regular basis. "Semi-regular" is practically my middle name.
> 
> No major changes in life, really, just incremental improvement -- I'm doing
> pretty much the same now as I did back then, only more of it. Still living
> in St. Louis.
> 
> Thanks to JT and WJaKe for reminding me about our legal citation for "operating
> above water craft in an unsafe manner" (as opposed to a submarine, we supposed).
> I believe the statute of limitations has run out and you can again return
> to Missouri, on condition that you abstain from knife-fighting. ("You mean
> it was REAL?")
> 
> Ed Johnson, I think I remember you. At least, there's something familiar
> about that name!  :) By 1994 I think I was still around on Prodigy HF.
> But my attendance may have been spotty and I might have missed a roll call.
> I know I was pretty active in 1993, the year of the first Gathering. And
> I stayed active until shortly after the 2nd Butler gathering, when we saw
> this move ... uh... I think it was APOLLO 13? And that would have been 1995.
> (Thank you, us.imdb.com.)
> 
> OK, I have to dash off, but I'll be back. See you all later.
> 
> -- Steve Beck
> 
> PS.  ED, I can't believe they canceled such a promising nuclear rocket program
> back in the '60s.  Why, the NERVA those guys!

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22592
From: Ed Johnson 
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 10:28:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Thanks for the welcome
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On 9 Jul 2003 03:51:55 GMT, sbeck1@prodigy.net wrote:

          <snip>
>
>PS.  ED, I can't believe they canceled such a promising nuclear rocket program
>back in the '60s.  Why, the NERVA those guys!
   Ouch!(groan <g>)    Steve:   After I posted, I checked what the
web had to say about NERVA.  Apparently it was revisited a couple of
times in later years, but without serious investment money for R&D.
I was unable to find out how much thrust these various test engines
were able to produce.  Anyone here know were to find out the thrust
of the experimental NERVA engines?  I know the one in particular ran
for the better part of an hour at "1,100 MWt" power output.  If this
was a nuclear reactor for electrical power generation, I would know
what to do with this figure (one gigawatt), but I am not sure how it
directly relates to pounds of thrust in this instance.  (Are there
no 'rocket scientists' lurking on the Heinlein Forum?)  I know that
this is a bright bunch of rugged individuals.  Maybe someone who
works for Lockheed-Martin could help?  :-)
The best specific impulse figures I could find for nerva  was 925
(which is about twice what the H + O2 main shuttle engines have.)  
   One article suggested that the best use for nuclear propulsion
was in the use of a reactor generating electricity.  The electricity
would then power an ion rocket for a much higher spec. impulse (it
did not mention how much higher).  Again, the thrust would be very
low. The trade off was that many more watt-hours could be generated
this way with the same amount of nuclear material in use.  It seems
that the NERVA engines were self destructive, eroding their cores in
a relatively short time span.

Ed J

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22593
From: Ed Johnson 
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 10:46:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Thanks for the welcome
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On 9 Jul 2003 03:51:55 GMT, sbeck1@prodigy.net wrote:

>Thanks for the welcome back! I guess all stray cats come back, sooner or
>later. Nice to see so many familiar names. Yes, Dee, I hope to be around
>on a semi-regular basis. "Semi-regular" is practically my middle name.
               <snip>

Steve:   My first encounter with Prodigy HF was December, 1994.  I
missed all of those earlier Gatherings (Butler, Mo and Oregon).  I
managed to make one later gathering in MD and I initiated one
mini-gathering in Seattle (4 HF cobbers plus two spouses and two
children which was graciously hosted by bytor).  

All:   So, when is the next Gathering?  I am planning a return to
the Napa Valley for vacation shortly.  While on the Left Coast I
will endeavor to meet with some genuinely nice people while I am out
there:  Audrey & James Gifford & young Bob;  Deb and Geo; to name a
few.  If someone wanted to make a mini-gathering out of this, I
guess that it would take some actual planning.  (I really hadn't
thought that far ahead).
     Any thoughts on this?

Ed J


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22594
From: JT 
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 22:59:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Thanks for the welcome
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Wed, 09 Jul 2003 10:46:03 -0400, Ed Johnson
<eljohn2@comcast.spamthis.net > wrote:
>All:   So, when is the next Gathering?

I am not likely to be attending anything that requires me to sleep
away from my house while I have children who still need naps--so it'll
be at least another few years.  Unless I go alone. If I am permitted.
;)

>young Bob

Who is not so young anymore!  Heck, the twins are probably in high
school. <VBG>

Seriously, Ed, you've got the time, you've just been elected Planner
of the Gathering. <D&R>

JT



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22595
From: Filksinger" 
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 23:15:06 -0700
Subject: BloodHag
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Here's something truly bizarre for you. Some of you might appreciate it,
though.

Bloodhag

Fact 1: They are a heavy metal rock group.

Fact 2: They are librarians.

Fact 3: All of their songs are short bios of science fiction authors.

Fact 4: They throw books at their audience.

If this sounds remotely interesting, check out www.bloodhag.com. They even
have their first video, "Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.", on the website.

Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined



------------------------------------------------------------

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