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Article 23908
From: Deb@sff.net (D.A. Houdek)
Date: 12 Sep 2004 03:56:28 GMT
Subject: Re: This might make Deb happier....
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Snarf! Right. Happier. Apparently the story isn't fixed in any incarnation.
Maybe it's the viruses that are actually the Force--can change time and
rewrite the harvest, or however the line went. Guess it doesn't matter _how_
we remember any of it, it's all subject to change!
Sarcastic? Who me? ;-)
Deb
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23909
From: John Paul Vrolyk
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 09:26:34 -0700
Subject: Re: State's Rights to run elections
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Robert Slater wrote:
> The Blanket Primary seriously p****d me off,
Yes, me too. I'm glad they scrapped that. Of
course, the replacement system is only slightly
less bad, and still has some signifigant ballot
access hurtles.
> but I am voting straight
> Libertarian, because if they do not get 10 percent of the vote they don't
> get to be in the November Election.
I believe it's one percent, not ten percent.
--
John Paul Vrolyk
jp@vrolyk.org
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23910
From: John Paul Vrolyk
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 09:37:09 -0700
Subject: Re: State's Rights to run elections
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Lorrita Morgan wrote:
> Here in Washington we are experiencing that already. We have held a
> "Blanket Primary" forever until we the State of Washington were sued by the
> GOP and Democratic Party because it is inherently unfair or some such
> legalism for we the voters to vote for our choice regardless of party
> affiliation in a primary election.
A primary is not an election of an officeholder.
A primary is a private organization deciding who
they should endorse during the real election.
It's inherently unfair for the voters to expect
to dictate such a choice to a private organization.
Political parties deserve just as much freedom of
association as any other private organization.
It might be wise tactics for a party to invite
voters into the decision, but there shouldn't
be any obilgation to do so.
It might also be wise to only invite such voters
as actually support that party, as opposed to
allowing the party's opponents to rig it's
endorsement, hence parties often oppose (rightfully,
IMHO) letting voters vote in the primary of more
than one different party.
> This means that I, the voter must chose
> to vote a certain party's ballot or have no choice in who my county
> commissioner, city councilman, or legislator is since in many cases there
> are only candidates from one party running.
You realize that when the actual election is
held, you can vote for whoever you want,
regardless of party, regardless of whether
they are printed on the offical ballot?
> I feel this confusing multi-ballot primary is the
> federalization of voting requirements.
Weird. I don't see how it's at all related to
federalization of voting requirements. The
state legislature passed the new intrusive
system after the courts struck down the old
even more intrusive system.
--
John Paul Vrolyk
jp@vrolyk.org
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23911
From: John Paul Vrolyk
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 09:45:27 -0700
Subject: Re: Electoral College
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Charles Graft wrote:
> The big argument against the electoral college is that it can (and
> does) in winners taking less than a plurality of the popular vote.
To win the electoral college requires an absolute
majority of the votes of the electors. A majority
in the Electoral College doesn't correspond to
a majority of the the electorate any more than a
majority in the Senate does, and isn't meant to,
for the very same reason.
> This
> results in charges of illegitimate (recent) president or fraudulent
> (historical) presidents.
Charges? So? Anybody can make any charges anytime.
Where's the bad thing that would make us want to
change the system?
> Certain states that historically vote for one or the other of the
> parties are simply written off by both candidates as having no effect on
> the election. Thus campaigning is concentrating on the few largest
> pivotal states. The rest of the country might as well not be there.
So a state that is written off minds? Fewer annoying
election ads. The majority gets to have the candidate
they support put his effort where it will do the most
good in getting that candidate elected, and likewise
for the other candidate. Where's the downside?
> The biggest problem I see in going to the popular vote is that it
> would federalize requirement for voters.
I see much bigger problems than that. How about
dissolving federalism once and for all, and not
even bothering to pretend that we're a union of
states, the federal gov't of which only has
certain enumerated powers?
--
John Paul Vrolyk
jp@vrolyk.org
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23912
From: Dean White"
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 13:27:18 -0500
Subject: Re: State's Rights to run elections
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
>
> You realize that when the actual election is
> held, you can vote for whoever you want,
> regardless of party, regardless of whether
> they are printed on the offical ballot?
>
>
> --
> John Paul Vrolyk
> jp@vrolyk.org
>
This is not true in all states, Oklahoma where I live does not allow write
in ballots. Also independent candidates are very much discriminated
against, they are pretty much never on the ballot, the last one I remember
was in 1980.
--
www.DeanWhite.net
has contact information
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23913
From: David M. Silver"
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 14:13:39 -0700
Subject: Re: State's Rights to run elections
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
In article <41447B35.8387B160@vrolyk.org>,
John Paul Vrolyk <jp@vrolyk.org> wrote:
> A primary is not an election of an officeholder.
> A primary is a private organization deciding who
> they should endorse during the real election.
>
> It's inherently unfair for the voters to expect
> to dictate such a choice to a private organization.
> Political parties deserve just as much freedom of
> association as any other private organization.
>
> It might be wise tactics for a party to invite
> voters into the decision, but there shouldn't
> be any obilgation to do so.
>
> It might also be wise to only invite such voters
> as actually support that party, as opposed to
> allowing the party's opponents to rig it's
> endorsement, hence parties often oppose (rightfully,
> IMHO) letting voters vote in the primary of more
> than one different party.
Then the private organizations should pay for it, totally,
instead of riding on the taxpayers' backs and dollars as they
presently do. They can always go back to caucus systems if they'd
don't like it. The Golden Rule provides that those who provide
the gold set the rules. Washington isn't the only place where
they've struck down open primary systems, lately.
--
David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, Lt.(jg), USN, R'td, 1907-88
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23914
From: JT
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 20:13:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Electoral College
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 09:45:27 -0700, John Paul Vrolyk <jp@vrolyk.org>
wrote:
>So a state that is written off minds? Fewer annoying
>election ads.
Ain't this the truth. I saw my first-ever campaign ad in July when I
was in Ohio for a long weekend. And my second, third, fourth... etc.
That's one advantage towards living in a state that's already
"presumed" for one candidate. The only one, really.
JT
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23915
From: JT
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 20:20:17 -0400
Subject: Re: This might make Deb happier....
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On 12 Sep 2004 03:56:28 GMT, Deb@sff.net (D.A. Houdek) wrote:
>Snarf! Right. Happier. Apparently the story isn't fixed in any incarnation.
>Maybe it's the viruses that are actually the Force--can change time and
>rewrite the harvest, or however the line went. Guess it doesn't matter _how_
>we remember any of it, it's all subject to change!
>
>Sarcastic? Who me? ;-)
>
>Deb
Well, at least it's closer to making Han -change- over time.
How is this different than Heinlein revising upon republication or
Mrs. H. finally releasing the "Uncut" Heinleins? (Gasp--on topic!)
After all, that's the story he really -wanted- to tell, but couldn't
get published. There are parallels.
Or think of it as the Shakespeare of our time. That is allowed to be
reinterpreted as it is performed, right? Think "rerelease" and it's
close to analogous.
Although Christine said the same thing you are really mad about--how
come the original cuts aren't on the box set as extras? Maybe they
will be released as part of some obscenely expensive set in about five
years. <NG>
I've got them on tape, maybe I will have set up my digital recorder
stuff by then so I can preserve that version. ;)
JT
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23916
From: Robert A. Woodward"
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 18:49:01 -0700
Subject: Re: State's Rights to run elections
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
In article <ag.plusone-A5A16C.14133912092004@wixer.greyware.com>,
"David M. Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote:
> In article <41447B35.8387B160@vrolyk.org>,
> John Paul Vrolyk <jp@vrolyk.org> wrote:
>
> > A primary is not an election of an officeholder.
> > A primary is a private organization deciding who
> > they should endorse during the real election.
> >
> > It's inherently unfair for the voters to expect
> > to dictate such a choice to a private organization.
> > Political parties deserve just as much freedom of
> > association as any other private organization.
> >
> > It might be wise tactics for a party to invite
> > voters into the decision, but there shouldn't
> > be any obilgation to do so.
> >
> > It might also be wise to only invite such voters
> > as actually support that party, as opposed to
> > allowing the party's opponents to rig it's
> > endorsement, hence parties often oppose (rightfully,
> > IMHO) letting voters vote in the primary of more
> > than one different party.
>
> Then the private organizations should pay for it, totally,
> instead of riding on the taxpayers' backs and dollars as they
> presently do. They can always go back to caucus systems if they'd
> don't like it. The Golden Rule provides that those who provide
> the gold set the rules. Washington isn't the only place where
> they've struck down open primary systems, lately.
David, to the best of my knowledge, the states with primaries have
them due to state law. The parties have little choice (some states
allow minor parties a pass on the primary requirement, but only if
don't get very many votes). If the states want a primary, they
better well pay for it.
--
Robert Woodward <robertaw@drizzle.com>
<http://www.drizzle.com/~robertaw
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23917
From: David M. Silver"
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 22:47:19 -0700
Subject: Re: State's Rights to run elections
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
In article <robertaw-F611BA.18490012092004@wixer.greyware.com>,
"Robert A. Woodward" <robertaw@drizzle.com> wrote:
> In article <ag.plusone-A5A16C.14133912092004@wixer.greyware.com>,
> "David M. Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > In article <41447B35.8387B160@vrolyk.org>,
> > John Paul Vrolyk <jp@vrolyk.org> wrote:
> >
> > > A primary is not an election of an officeholder.
> > > A primary is a private organization deciding who
> > > they should endorse during the real election.
> > >
> > > It's inherently unfair for the voters to expect
> > > to dictate such a choice to a private organization.
> > > Political parties deserve just as much freedom of
> > > association as any other private organization.
> > >
> > > It might be wise tactics for a party to invite
> > > voters into the decision, but there shouldn't
> > > be any obilgation to do so.
> > >
> > > It might also be wise to only invite such voters
> > > as actually support that party, as opposed to
> > > allowing the party's opponents to rig it's
> > > endorsement, hence parties often oppose (rightfully,
> > > IMHO) letting voters vote in the primary of more
> > > than one different party.
> >
> > Then the private organizations should pay for it, totally,
> > instead of riding on the taxpayers' backs and dollars as they
> > presently do. They can always go back to caucus systems if they'd
> > don't like it. The Golden Rule provides that those who provide
> > the gold set the rules. Washington isn't the only place where
> > they've struck down open primary systems, lately.
>
> David, to the best of my knowledge, the states with primaries have
> them due to state law. The parties have little choice (some states
> allow minor parties a pass on the primary requirement, but only if
> don't get very many votes). If the states want a primary, they
> better well pay for it.
It's a chicken and egg situation. Those laws were passed in and
following a time when free open primaries were permitted without
challenge by the parties -- in fact, they were contained in many
of the reform laws that first created primaries. The Howard
Johnson progressives in the Republican party in California
included such a law along with their other reforms at the turn of
the last century to get rid of the control the railroads had over
California politics. A state was thereafter considered free for a
century to have or choose not to have an open primary. When
Heinlein, to bring it on topic, for example, ran for that state
assembly seat in 1938, he lost in an open primary, because of the
cross-filing procedure then permitted. His opponent, a Republican
state assembly incumbent named Charles Lyons, registered in both
Democrat and Republican primaries, while Heinlein registered only
in the Democrat one. Lyons beat Heinlein in the Democrat primary
by, as Heinlein later more of less wrote, 'a[n aggregate] few
voters per precinct' and won unopposed in the Republican one.
California later choose to do away with that form of open primary
and abolished cross-filing. Yet sixty years later and only a
couple years ago when California by direct referendum chose to go
to another form of then-permitted open primary, it was
immediately challenged by both major parties and immediately
struck down by the majority of the same "conservative," and
otherwise "state's rights" Supreme Court that gave us our current
chief executive. And now of course the two major parties are
using that decision to try to strike down all open primaries all
over the United States, such as Washington's, a century after the
reform enactments that brought us them.
The states ought to get what their citizens legislate directly to
pay for when they do so; not what lawyers for two major political
parties convince five politicians in black robes, all life-long
members of one of the selfsame two parties, they should have. The
next reform step is going to be the citizens of a state by
referendum declaring that primary elections are entirely open and
no party affiliation may be listed on a ballot by a candidate; or
to abolish primaries, permit anyone to file using any party label
he or she declares or invents to claim what she or he is, and
hold such run-offs as may be necessary that way, if no one
receives a majority vote. The Republicrats and Democans are going
to really love that. You think the recent recall election
California had for governor, with its two or three hundred
candidates running, was fun? Wait.
--
David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, Lt.(jg), USN, R'td, 1907-88
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23918
From: Charles Graft
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 11:10:25 -0500
Subject: Re: Electoral College
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
All--
At least we got a discussion going here. Refreshing.
--
<<Big Charlie>>
"Seen on the door to a light-wave lab: 'Do not look into laser with remaining
good eye.'"
John Paul Vrolyk wrote:
> Charles Graft wrote:
> > <snip>
> To win the electoral college requires an absolute
> majority of the votes of the electors. A majority
> in the Electoral College doesn't correspond to
> a majority of the the electorate any more than a
> majority in the Senate does, and isn't meant to,
> for the very same reason.
Right. And if that majority is not achieved, the contest goes to the
legislative branch. And I don't believe there has ever been a case where said
legislature did not vote in favor of the candidate of the majority party of
that legislature.
Count the votes. Count them again. Keep counting them until we win.
> > This
> > results in charges of illegitimate (recent) president or fraudulent
> > (historical) presidents.
>
> Charges? So? Anybody can make any charges anytime.
>
> Where's the bad thing that would make us want to
> change the system?
>
> > Certain states that historically vote for one or the other of the
> > parties are simply written off by both candidates as having no effect on
> > the election. Thus campaigning is concentrating on the few largest
> > pivotal states. The rest of the country might as well not be there.
>
> So a state that is written off minds? Fewer annoying
> election ads. The majority gets to have the candidate
> they support put his effort where it will do the most
> good in getting that candidate elected, and likewise
> for the other candidate. Where's the downside?
In a (supposed) democracy writing off large numbers of voters is not
supposed to be a good thing.
>
> > The biggest problem I see in going to the popular vote is that it
> > would federalize requirement for voters.
>
> I see much bigger problems than that. How about
> dissolving federalism once and for all, and not
> even bothering to pretend that we're a union of
> states, the federal gov't of which only has
> certain enumerated powers?
>
> --
> John Paul Vrolyk
> jp@vrolyk.org
Federalize? That would merely be recognition of the status quo. The
states ceased being sovereign in the 1860's and were doomed as a political
power in 1912.
Charlie
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23919
From: David M. Silver"
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 14:16:37 -0700
Subject: Re: State's Rights to run elections
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
In article
<ag.plusone-B4A85E.22471912092004@wixer.greyware.com>,
"David M. Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote:
> The Howard
> Johnson progressives in the Republican party in California
"Hiram," I should remember that name. He was the king who
provided some wood for a certain temple. Howard provided some
HoJos.
--
David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, Lt.(jg), USN, R'td, 1907-88
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23920
From: JT
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 20:59:50 -0400
Subject: Re: State's Rights to run elections
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 14:16:37 -0700, "David M. Silver"
<ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote:
>In article
><ag.plusone-B4A85E.22471912092004@wixer.greyware.com>,
> "David M. Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> The Howard
>> Johnson progressives in the Republican party in California
>
>"Hiram," I should remember that name. He was the king who
>provided some wood for a certain temple. Howard provided some
>HoJos.
I just figured I was too young to know the full story about Howard
Johnson. ;)
JT
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23921
From: John Paul Vrolyk
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 19:59:13 -0700
Subject: Re: State's Rights to run elections
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"David M. Silver" wrote:
> And now of course the two major parties are
> using that decision to try to strike down all open primaries all
> over the United States, such as Washington's
Washington had a "blanket primary". That is not the
same as an "open primary".
And you're wrong about the decision being used to
get rid of all open primaries...it's also been used
to force states to open closed primaries. By the
same reasoning, parties are free to invite independant
voters into their primary if they choose, and some of
them do so choose.
> The states ought to get what their citizens legislate directly to
> pay for when they do so; not what lawyers for two major political
> parties convince five politicians in black robes, all life-long
> members of one of the selfsame two parties, they should have.
I'd much prefer preserving the private rights over
letting 50% of the population trump them whenever
they please, but that's just me.
> The
> next reform step is going to be the citizens of a state by
> referendum declaring that primary elections are entirely open and
> no party affiliation may be listed on a ballot by a candidate; or
> to abolish primaries, permit anyone to file using any party label
> he or she declares or invents to claim what she or he is, and
> hold such run-offs as may be necessary that way, if no one
> receives a majority vote.
Certainly states may have elections that ignore parties,
and have run-off elections if they choose, and those both
sound fine to me. I'm not sure why you'd call that a
"primary" though.
--
John Paul Vrolyk
jp@vrolyk.org
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23922
From: John Paul Vrolyk
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 19:59:25 -0700
Subject: Re: State's Rights to run elections
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"David M. Silver" wrote:
> Then the private organizations should pay for it, totally,
> instead of riding on the taxpayers' backs and dollars as they
> presently do.
That sounds great.
> Washington isn't the only place where
> they've struck down open primary systems, lately.
The open primary in Washington hasn't been struck down.
The open primary is the new replacement for the blanket
primary that was struck down.
(Although, it could be struck down too. The gist of the
multiple Supreme Court decisions on the issue are not that
blanket or other types of primaries are inherently
unconstitutional, but rather that requiring a party to
include those they don't want in their primary is an
unconstitutional burden on their freedom of association.)
--
John Paul Vrolyk
jp@vrolyk.org
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23923
From: John Paul Vrolyk
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 20:05:27 -0700
Subject: Re: Electoral College
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Charles Graft wrote:
> In a (supposed) democracy writing off large numbers of voters is not
> supposed to be a good thing.
"Written off" from the campaigning, not the election.
Those votes from a hard-core-for-one-party state still
count just as much as if been a "key battleground" state.
Oh, and isn't this a republic, not a democracy?
> > I see much bigger problems than that. How about
> > dissolving federalism once and for all, and not
> > even bothering to pretend that we're a union of
> > states, the federal gov't of which only has
> > certain enumerated powers?
> Federalize? That would merely be recognition of the status quo. The
> states ceased being sovereign in the 1860's and were doomed as a political
> power in 1912.
That's why I said "pretend". It practice that's
not how it is, but it's still the theory. It's only
far-fetched, not impossible, that a strong-willed
state gov't and a Supreme Court that can read and
understand history could turn the tide.
--
John Paul Vrolyk
jp@vrolyk.org
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23924
From: David M. Silver"
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 08:59:21 -0700
Subject: Re: State's Rights to run elections
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
In article <4147B001.93086ADE@vrolyk.org>,
John Paul Vrolyk <jp@vrolyk.org> wrote:
> "David M. Silver" wrote:
> > And now of course the two major parties are
> > using that decision to try to strike down all open primaries all
> > over the United States, such as Washington's
>
> Washington had a "blanket primary". That is not the
> same as an "open primary".
>
There seems to be quite a bit of looseness in definition, and
confusion on what's "open," "blanket," and whatever other terms
are used. See, e.g.,
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3957808b60bb.htm
As soon as Scalia gets around to redefining the terms, again, the
next time; we'll see even more confusion.
> And you're wrong about the decision being used to
> get rid of all open primaries...it's also been used
> to force states to open closed primaries. By the
> same reasoning, parties are free to invite independant
> voters into their primary if they choose, and some of
> them do so choose.
>
> > The states ought to get what their citizens legislate directly to
> > pay for when they do so; not what lawyers for two major political
> > parties convince five politicians in black robes, all life-long
> > members of one of the selfsame two parties, they should have.
>
> I'd much prefer preserving the private rights over
> letting 50% of the population trump them whenever
> they please, but that's just me.
>
All "private rights" as you call them are enacted by statute and
created pursuant to compact among the community; in a republic or
democracy the electorate giveth, the electorate taketh away.
Private parties have no inherent rights, all 'rights' are
defeasible, the musings of some seventeenth and eighteenth
century dreamers and agitators to the contrary notwithstanding,
unless and until they move to or create some L. Neil Smith
dreamworld and all mince around with Saturday night specials on
their hips, thinking they're nine feet tall and covered with hair
until someone shoots them in the back of the head -- or smothers
them with their own pillows while they sleep.
Hobbes, man, Hobbes's the stuff to drink
For fellows whom it hurts to think:
Look into the pewter pot
To see the world as the world's not.
And faith, 'tis pleasant till 'tis past:
The mischief is 'twill not last.
> > The
> > next reform step is going to be the citizens of a state by
> > referendum declaring that primary elections are entirely open and
> > no party affiliation may be listed on a ballot by a candidate; or
> > to abolish primaries, permit anyone to file using any party label
> > he or she declares or invents to claim what she or he is, and
> > hold such run-offs as may be necessary that way, if no one
> > receives a majority vote.
>
> Certainly states may have elections that ignore parties,
> and have run-off elections if they choose, and those both
> sound fine to me. I'm not sure why you'd call that a
> "primary" though.
Didn't call it a primary, did I? Read the above again, "or to
abolish primaries ... " etc. You'd have a general election; if
someone gets a majority, then he or she is elected; and if no one
gets a majority, then a run-off, if that's what the electorate of
a state decides to set up.
--
David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, Lt.(jg), USN, R'td, 1907-88
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23925
From: David M. Silver"
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 13:54:46 -0700
Subject: Re: State's Rights to run elections
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
In article <4v4fk0pgt3du4pdcdegcon9qe38vp58jqv@4ax.com>,
JT <JT@REM0VEsff.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 14:16:37 -0700, "David M. Silver"
> <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >In article
> ><ag.plusone-B4A85E.22471912092004@wixer.greyware.com>,
> > "David M. Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote:
> >
> >> The Howard
> >> Johnson progressives in the Republican party in California
> >
> >"Hiram," I should remember that name. He was the king who
> >provided some wood for a certain temple. Howard provided some
> >HoJos.
>
> I just figured I was too young to know the full story about Howard
> Johnson. ;)
>
> JT
Remind me to tell you the full story about HoJo in Cleveland,
Ohio, one time, youngster. <g> There were my mother and her
girlfriends who worked there as waitresses in 1947. They
organized and struck for recognition that Easter weekend. HoJo
got the cops on horsies to break up the picket lines on Saturday.
Sunday morning the girls dressed to kill, and took their children
with them. Mother put me in a Buster Brown and stuffed me (a
great indignity at age four) into my little sister's stroller.
The Cleveland Press and The Plain Dealer were out early. [Someone
musta told them?] Took great big pictures of great big policemen
on great big police horses staring down at attractively dressed,
but respectable and matronly little women with picket signs and
tiny little children in strollers. The big pictures wound up on
the front page of the morning paper that went on everyone's
breakfast plate, back before TV.
Mayor Frank Lausche got an early morning phone call. The gravely
voice said to him, "Frank, if really you want to be governor, get
those goddamned horses away from that picket line with the little
kids." HoJo signed its first union contract that evening. Grandma
kept the front page picture after chewing out her daughter big
time. So now I have it.
--
David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, Lt.(jg), USN, R'td, 1907-88
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23926
From: les@vrolyk.org (Les Vrolyk)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 03:43:31 GMT
Subject: The First Gathering Remembered
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Sigh.
I was un-sleeping the other night and found myself reminiscing about
the first Heinlein Forum Gathering.
I remember so little detail anymore. But the memories I do have are
so precious, the best time of my entire life. Sorry JP. You come in
a close second!
So I flew out to St Louis, MO, and met Angel at the airport, followed
by MLinOR. We carpooled out to, um... Butler where we found JT
already checked in to the cabins. We were the first four there and
the only ones for quite a while, so we decided to hike out to the
lake. A lengthy trip as it turned out and I think we hitched a ride
back with another cabin-goer. (JT, is that right?)
Well, here's where it gets fuzzy. People arrived. Things were drunk.
We shared stories and songs.
One night we sat on the bluff watching a beautiful lightning storm in
the distance and listening to the rumble of the thunder. Steve Beck
brought a copy of The Last of the Mohicans sound-track and played it
in the background. The music and the thunder played together as if
they were meant to be. I soaked in the majesty of being with other
lovers of Mr Heinlein.
So we almost lost Stew Sparks when he drunkenly lurched at the edge of
the bluff and we almost got arrested for having snack food wars on the
lake. But nobody broke any bones that gathering (Beth..) and I think
we all went home happy. I still glow inside when I think about it. I
can't tell you guys how much you mean to me and always will. Oops,
there's a little tear of sentimentality...
Les
PS - Of course, the other gatherings were darn near as fun! I really
want some meatballs....
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23927
From: Filksinger"
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 21:54:17 -0700
Subject: Re: State's Rights to run elections
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
David M. Silver wrote:
<snip>
> All "private rights" as you call them are enacted by statute and
> created pursuant to compact among the community; in a republic or
> democracy the electorate giveth, the electorate taketh away.
Arguably, you have it backwards. The electorate doesn't have the ability to
give "rights", however you define them.
While the state may be able to punish people for doing things, there are a
great many things it cannot prevent the general public from doing in the
first place. If these are refered to as "rights", the general public doesn't
grant rights, it chooses to punish the exercise of these rights.
The fact that an electorate, or a king, or a dictator, or an eclesiastical
council, can punish us for doing things doesn't mean they have the power to
prevent us from doing them in the first place. Try using statutory authority
to take away the general public's "right" to defend themselves. They are
having considerable difficulty, despite the decision of the majority, to
take away the right to snort cocaine, and the attempt to take away the right
to drink alcohol was an unmitigated disaster.
> Private parties have no inherent rights, all 'rights' are
> defeasible,
So are the authorities of a state. The entire structure of democracy (or
monarchism, or you-name-it-ism) is defeasible. Everything that prevents pure
anarchy is defeasible.
> the musings of some seventeenth and eighteenth
> century dreamers and agitators to the contrary notwithstanding,
Do you really think that they didn't know that "inalienable rights" couldn't
be taken away, to the degree that they can? Of course they did. The stating
of rights doesn't imply that one thinks that they are rules of nature that
cannot be taken away.
They weren't just dreamers, they were political scientists attempting to
create a government with a foundation in basic principles defending liberty.
> unless and until they move to or create some L. Neil Smith
> dreamworld and all mince around with Saturday night specials on
> their hips, thinking they're nine feet tall and covered with hair
> until someone shoots them in the back of the head -- or smothers
> them with their own pillows while they sleep.
Amusing, argumentative, and possibly defamatory. I like it!
Though I understand what you mean about L. Neil Smith. His rantings on gun
control issues is one of the primary reasons I decided not to become a
Libertarian. Not because I have any disagreements on the right to keep and
bear arms as my personal position, and a pretty strong one, but because he
was obviously a paranoid flake.
--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23928
From: John Paul Vrolyk
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 08:30:49 -0700
Subject: Re: State's Rights to run elections
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"David M. Silver" wrote:
> There seems to be quite a bit of looseness in definition, and
> confusion on what's "open," "blanket," and whatever other terms
> are used. See, e.g.,
> http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3957808b60bb.htm
I don't see how that news story spends much
time discussing what is or isn't correct
terminology. The fact that many people get
it wrong doesn't make it right.
From http://www.ballot-access.org/2004/0901.html:
In another lawsuit related to Prop. 62, a Superior Court ruled
on August 9 that arguments about Prop. 62 in the State Voters’
Handbook cannot refer to the proposal as an "open primary."
Vandermost v Shelley, 04cs01033. The judge said that "open
primary" is now a technical term in law. It means a primary in
which the voter who arrives at the polls on primary day may
choose any party’s primary ballot. But, each party has its own
primary ballot. Prop. 62 does not have separate primary ballots
for each party, so it is not an "open primary."
Quite aside from judges, experts in the field have been
using the terms in particular ways for many years.
The fact that many people don't understand the correct
terminology and get them confused doesn't make wrong
terminology right.
> All "private rights" as you call them are enacted by statute and
> created pursuant to compact among the community; in a republic or
> democracy the electorate giveth, the electorate taketh away.
The social compact is the Constitution. The electorate can
change it, or can start a revolution to overthrow it.
But claiming just because 50+% of a state's populatin (or it's
legislature) want something, they get it, when what they
want is to violate the rights of other private individuals
is a direct violation of the that very compact among the
community you're touting.
> Private parties have no inherent rights, all 'rights' are
> defeasible, the musings of some seventeenth and eighteenth
> century dreamers and agitators to the contrary notwithstanding,
> unless and until they move to or create some L. Neil Smith
> dreamworld and all mince around with Saturday night specials on
> their hips, thinking they're nine feet tall and covered with hair
> until someone shoots them in the back of the head -- or smothers
> them with their own pillows while they sleep.
Are you feeling okay?
> > > The
> > > next reform step is going to be the citizens of a state by
> > > referendum declaring that primary elections are entirely open and
^^^^^^^
> > > no party affiliation may be listed on a ballot by a candidate;
Certainly states may have elections that ignore parties.
I'm not sure why you'd call that a "primary" though.
--
John Paul Vrolyk
jp@vrolyk.org
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23929
From: David M. Silver"
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 12:03:05 -0700
Subject: Re: State's Rights to run elections
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
In article <4149B1A9.348E8C4B@vrolyk.org>,
John Paul Vrolyk <jp@vrolyk.org> wrote:
> "David M. Silver" wrote:
> > There seems to be quite a bit of looseness in definition, and
> > confusion on what's "open," "blanket," and whatever other terms
> > are used. See, e.g.,
> > http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3957808b60bb.htm
>
> I don't see how that news story spends much
> time discussing what is or isn't correct
> terminology. The fact that many people get
> it wrong doesn't make it right.
>
So you agree with me. There's confusion, including, as you note
below, even in voters' handbooks prepared and screened,
presumably, by the Secretary of State, and by reporters, who all
ought know better.
> From http://www.ballot-access.org/2004/0901.html:
> In another lawsuit related to Prop. 62, a Superior Court ruled
> on August 9 that arguments about Prop. 62 in the State Voters’
> Handbook cannot refer to the proposal as an "open primary."
> Vandermost v Shelley, 04cs01033. The judge said that "open
> primary" is now a technical term in law. It means a primary in
> which the voter who arrives at the polls on primary day may
> choose any party’s primary ballot. But, each party has its own
> primary ballot. Prop. 62 does not have separate primary ballots
> for each party, so it is not an "open primary."
>
> Quite aside from judges, experts in the field have been
> using the terms in particular ways for many years.
> The fact that many people don't understand the correct
> terminology and get them confused doesn't make wrong
> terminology right.
>
But, aside from stating the obvious, all your comments confirm is
that's a failing by "experts in the field" to communicate or
educate even state officials and the press on the content of
their peculiar definitions, to say nothing of we poor mortals. It
leaves the field open for judges having less than 100 % honesty
in their decisions to wrought what they will. How convenient.
> > All "private rights" as you call them are enacted by statute and
> > created pursuant to compact among the community; in a republic or
> > democracy the electorate giveth, the electorate taketh away.
>
> The social compact is the Constitution. The electorate can
> change it, or can start a revolution to overthrow it.
> But claiming just because 50+% of a state's populatin (or it's
> legislature) want something, they get it, when what they
> want is to violate the rights of other private individuals
> is a direct violation of the that very compact among the
> community you're touting.
Any social compact calls itself by its name: Constitution,
Compact, Declaration of Rights, Statute, Regulation, Ordinance,
it doesn't matter: any name you wish to apply. Do you know what
compact among what community I'm "touting," or are you guessing?
You don't know, unless you've recently arrived from an outpost on
Titan and are sitting as a lump between my shoulders, with a
little tendril connection into my spinal cord, John Paul; and
since I've just checked I'm pretty sure you aren't doing that.
All I said was "giveth" and "taketh." I didn't prescribe the
method other than note one or more exists generally. That's up to
the electorate and its compact, whatever it is. One way to
"taketh" is nibble them to death by ducks, e.g., Patriot Acts,
biased and corrupt judges, complacent populace, ignorant,
complicit or lazy media, and power mad control freaks in the
executive branch; but you knew we knew that, don't you? Of course
it's a violation. It's also a method used in real life. Please
spare me recitation of junior high school level civics lessons,
John. Assume I passed those courses, somehow, perhaps by bribery,
undue influence or razzle-dazzle. ;-)
>
> > Private parties have no inherent rights, all 'rights' are
> > defeasible, the musings of some seventeenth and eighteenth
> > century dreamers and agitators to the contrary notwithstanding,
> > unless and until they move to or create some L. Neil Smith
> > dreamworld and all mince around with Saturday night specials on
> > their hips, thinking they're nine feet tall and covered with hair
> > until someone shoots them in the back of the head -- or smothers
> > them with their own pillows while they sleep.
>
> Are you feeling okay?
>
Feeling "fine," actually, just as Valentine Michael. You do read
Heinlein, don't you? Please try to understand his humor,
including his deliberate tensions and contradictions between
works written, as David Nesset does. ;-) [I don't think it's
defamatory, David. Cyrano minced when he was trying to be
provocative, and his swordsman's wrists were never limp.]
Heinlein said maintaining a democracy is the same as keeping an
automobile, inefficient, poorly engineered, and inherently
susceptible to disrepair running properly. Do I need cite
specific chapter and verse; or is that enough of a hint?
> > > > The
> > > > next reform step is going to be the citizens of a state by
> > > > referendum declaring that primary elections are entirely open and
> ^^^^^^^
> > > > no party affiliation may be listed on a ballot by a candidate;
>
> Certainly states may have elections that ignore parties.
> I'm not sure why you'd call that a "primary" though.
They can call it what they wish ("open," "closed," "blanket" even
"bellybutton"), if they but will it, so long as five politicians
in black robes allow it. Again,
Hobbes, man, Hobbes's the stuff to drink
For fellows whom it hurts to think:
Look into the pewter pot
To see the world as the world's not.
And faith, 'tis pleasant till 'tis past:
The mischief is 'twill not last.
* * * * *
We poor lads, 'tis our turn now
To hear such tunes as killed the cow.
Pretty friendship 'tis to rhyme
Your friends to death before their time
Moping melancholy mad:
Come pipe a tune to dance to, lad.
--
David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, Lt.(jg), USN, R'td, 1907-88
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23930
From: JT
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 21:01:03 -0400
Subject: Re: The First Gathering Remembered
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
>lake. A lengthy trip as it turned out and I think we hitched a ride
>back with another cabin-goer. (JT, is that right?)
Boy, I'll say. Never trust the joggers when they say it was just a
little ways away. That was a Looong way uphill.
>Well, here's where it gets fuzzy.
I bet there's a "First Gathering Report" out there--I know it was in a
Galactic Citizen and that was compiled from Prodigy postings. WJaKe
or Deb might have the article electronically. I think there's some
videotape, too, but that might have been from the second one.
>People arrived. Things were drunk.
I'll say--I've still got one of the empty bottles of George Dickel
from that weekend on my Heinlein shelf.
>We shared stories and songs.
>One night we sat on the bluff watching a beautiful lightning storm in
>the distance and listening to the rumble of the thunder.
That ranks as my favorite "nature experience" ever.
>So we almost lost Stew Sparks when he drunkenly lurched at the edge of
>the bluff and we almost got arrested for having snack food wars on the
>lake.
Actually, WJaKe and Stew did get arrested. Steve posted bail or signed
for them as a MO resident or something, and I think we took up a
collection to pay their fines!
But nobody broke any bones that gathering (Beth..) and I think
>we all went home happy. I still glow inside when I think about it. I
>can't tell you guys how much you mean to me and always will. Oops,
>there's a little tear of sentimentality...
Ed Johnson and WJaKe were over for dinner a few weeks ago and I had
the pictures from that trip out showing Ed. There were people I had
to struggle to name at first--Joy and Rob III among them. I was
reminded how much I miss Becky-Trekkie.
>Les
>
>PS - Of course, the other gatherings were darn near as fun! I really
>want some meatballs....
Hey Fader, that's your cue to talk about the next Gathering--hope your
PC is rebuilt soon and you get a chance to throw out some more ideas.
;)
--JT
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23931
From: JT
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 21:15:19 -0400
Subject: Re: The First Gathering Remembered
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 03:43:31 GMT, les@vrolyk.org (Les Vrolyk) wrote:
>Sigh.
>I was un-sleeping the other night and found myself reminiscing about
>the first Heinlein Forum Gathering.
Thanks a LOT, Les, you got me going.... ;)
Galactic Citizen issue #4, Autumn 1993 has the report of the first
Gathering. Also, a good article on Butler and the library.
Looking through my back issues, I had forgotten that the first issue
proudly proclaimed itself to be the "Official Journal of the Heinlein
Forum".
I'd also forgotten how embarrassing much of my poetry is.
I don't feel like scanning anything in right now--hopefully someone's
got the electronic copies.
JT
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23932
From: David M. Silver"
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 19:11:03 -0700
Subject: Re: State's Rights to run elections
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
In article <41491c8c.0@news.sff.net>,
"Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net> wrote:
> David M. Silver wrote:
> <snip>
> > All "private rights" as you call them are enacted by statute and
> > created pursuant to compact among the community; in a republic or
> > democracy the electorate giveth, the electorate taketh away.
>
> Arguably, you have it backwards. The electorate doesn't have the ability to
> give "rights", however you define them.
>
I don't disagree with much of anything you say, strongly, on some
levels, David; but it's amusing to argue about it. Technically,
however, under a referendum (or a successful revolution), the
electorate can 'grant' anything it wishes as a "right." Douglas
could "invent," to use the term his political opponents like, a
"penumbra of rights," such as privacy, by the fiat of writing the
majority in Griswold v. Connecticut; only to be overturned by
some future majority if it ever comes, or cut away upon, by a
legislature; however, a referendum subsequent to Griswold and
while Griswold is in force incorporating such a right expressly
in a state constitution would prevent a state court from chipping
away at it on a state law basis, provided they are not wholly
unfaithful to their oaths of office.
> While the state may be able to punish people for doing things, there are a
> great many things it cannot prevent the general public from doing in the
> first place.
They can make a pretty good try at preventing most things or
reducing the effectiveness of most things. I was reading a short
story Fran Van Cleave wrote for Analog yesterday, published in
the February 2001 issue: "The Mycojuana Incident," in which the
federal 'war on drugs,' continuing into the future, gets real
cute against medical usage of MJ by cancer chemo patients by
trying to destroy the domestic crop by spraying it with a sort of
paraquat which infects it with a parasitic mold that invades the
lungs, giving a pneumonialike syndrome that in the
immunodeficient can invade the brain. That would be about as
effective as Agent Orange, wouldn't it; and who'd know, until it
was too late? Do I believe our government would do that? No more
than I believe it would allow drug companies who hold monopolies
under patent law to limit manufacture to the most expensive, most
profit-making and least effective forms of a drug; and to prevent
physicians from treating patients the most effective ways.
> If these are refered to as "rights", the general public doesn't
> grant rights, it chooses to punish the exercise of these rights.
>
Sometimes it can choose to punish its agents, its government,
from interfering with rights, too. E.g. 29 USC 1984.
> The fact that an electorate, or a king, or a dictator, or an eclesiastical
> council, can punish us for doing things doesn't mean they have the power to
> prevent us from doing them in the first place. Try using statutory authority
> to take away the general public's "right" to defend themselves. They are
> having considerable difficulty, despite the decision of the majority, to
> take away the right to snort cocaine, and the attempt to take away the right
> to drink alcohol was an unmitigated disaster.
>
Doesn't stop 'em from trying, tho, does it?
> > Private parties have no inherent rights, all 'rights' are
> > defeasible,
>
> So are the authorities of a state. The entire structure of democracy (or
> monarchism, or you-name-it-ism) is defeasible. Everything that prevents pure
> anarchy is defeasible.
>
> > the musings of some seventeenth and eighteenth
> > century dreamers and agitators to the contrary notwithstanding,
>
> Do you really think that they didn't know that "inalienable rights" couldn't
> be taken away, to the degree that they can? Of course they did. The stating
> of rights doesn't imply that one thinks that they are rules of nature that
> cannot be taken away.
>
Do I really think? Perhaps not, but they did waste a lot of paper
and ink trying to convince the masses such is so. If you believe
in fairies, just clap your hands. It's a shame that schooling
stops there.
> They weren't just dreamers, they were political scientists attempting to
> create a government with a foundation in basic principles defending liberty.
>
And they were also sophists.
> > unless and until they move to or create some L. Neil Smith
> > dreamworld and all mince around with Saturday night specials on
> > their hips, thinking they're nine feet tall and covered with hair
> > until someone shoots them in the back of the head -- or smothers
> > them with their own pillows while they sleep.
>
> Amusing, argumentative, and possibly defamatory. I like it!
>
Heh.
> Though I understand what you mean about L. Neil Smith. His rantings on gun
> control issues is one of the primary reasons I decided not to become a
> Libertarian. Not because I have any disagreements on the right to keep and
> bear arms as my personal position, and a pretty strong one, but because he
> was obviously a paranoid flake.
Neil's probably not the worst. I'll just go on calling myself
'Liberal' in the Jeffersonian sense; and try to avoid getting
into situations where I actually have to use my own precious
bodily fluids to water the tree. One way is to keep 'em guessing
whether and what I'm holding and keep tuning up the engine and
tighten the bolts from time to time.
The King with half the East at heel
is marched from lands of morning;
Their fighters drink the rivers up,
their shafts benight the air,
And he that stands will die for nought,
and home there's no returning.
The Spartans on the sea-wet rock sat down
and combed their hair.
--
David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, Lt.(jg), USN, R'td, 1907-88
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23933
From: les@vrolyk.org (Les Vrolyk)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 03:22:07 GMT
Subject: Re: The First Gathering Remembered
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 21:15:19 -0400, JT <JT@REM0VEsff.net> wrote:
>
>I don't feel like scanning anything in right now--hopefully someone's
>got the electronic copies.
>
>JT
I hope so too. My GC's are all in boxes right now and I can't get to
them. I was hoping other people would also post things they
remembered from the gatherings. Fader's birthday bash will be a grand
reunion and hopefully lots and lots of us can make it. We need more
memories!
Les
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23934
From: John Paul Vrolyk
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 20:26:20 -0700
Subject: Re: State's Rights to run elections
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"David M. Silver" wrote:
> So you agree with me. There's confusion,
I don't agree that one should use incorrect terminology.
Doing so out of ignorance is quite forgivable, but I have
a hard time with those who, knowing better, do it
deliberately, to mislead or for some other unknown reason.
> all your comments confirm is
> that's a failing by "experts in the field" to communicate or
> educate even state officials and the press on the content of
> their peculiar definitions, to say nothing of we poor mortals.
I feel that people who want to be taken seriously on a
subject, be they officials, reporters, or poor mortals,
should make some effort to become informed on the subject.
> Do you know what
> compact among what community I'm "touting," or are you guessing?
Since we were discussing primaries in the United States,
if you're not talking about the compact of the United States,
perhaps you should explain how whatever other compact you
are discussing is relevant.
> You don't know, unless you've recently arrived from an outpost on
> Titan and are sitting as a lump between my shoulders, with a
> little tendril connection into my spinal cord, John Paul; and
> since I've just checked I'm pretty sure you aren't doing that.
I don't see that comments about my tendrils help the
discussion at all.
If I'm mistaken about which compact you're talking about,
just tell which compact it is that you are talking about.
> Please
> spare me recitation of junior high school level civics lessons,
> John. Assume I passed those courses,
My name is "John Paul", not "John".
Your advice doesn't help, as *I* have not taken those lessons
or passed those courses.
> > > Private parties have no inherent rights, all 'rights' are
> > > defeasible, the musings of some seventeenth and eighteenth
> > > century dreamers and agitators to the contrary notwithstanding,
> > > unless and until they move to or create some L. Neil Smith
> > > dreamworld and all mince around with Saturday night specials on
> > > their hips, thinking they're nine feet tall and covered with hair
> > > until someone shoots them in the back of the head -- or smothers
> > > them with their own pillows while they sleep.
> >
> > Are you feeling okay?
> >
>
> Feeling "fine," actually, just as Valentine Michael.
Okay then.
> You do read
> Heinlein, don't you? Please try to understand his humor,
> including his deliberate tensions and contradictions between
> works written, as David Nesset does. ;-)
It's quite possible to read and find humor in Heinlein's
writings but not find humor in your paragraph above.
> [I don't think it's
> defamatory, David. Cyrano minced when he was trying to be
> provocative, and his swordsman's wrists were never limp.]
> Heinlein said maintaining a democracy is the same as keeping an
> automobile, inefficient, poorly engineered, and inherently
> susceptible to disrepair running properly. Do I need cite
> specific chapter and verse; or is that enough of a hint?
I have little inclination to search posts here for deep
hidden meanings. Just say what you mean.
--
John Paul Vrolyk
jp@vrolyk.org
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23935
From: David M. Silver"
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 22:00:00 -0700
Subject: Re: State's Rights to run elections
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
In article <414A595C.98828A9B@vrolyk.org>,
John Paul Vrolyk <jp@vrolyk.org> wrote:
> "David M. Silver" wrote:
> > So you agree with me. There's confusion,
>
> I don't agree that one should use incorrect terminology.
>
I haven't asked you to agree with use of incorrect anything. I
don't need to tell you to do what you wish.
> Doing so out of ignorance is quite forgivable, but I have
> a hard time with those who, knowing better, do it
> deliberately, to mislead or for some other unknown reason.
>
> > all your comments confirm is
> > that's a failing by "experts in the field" to communicate or
> > educate even state officials and the press on the content of
> > their peculiar definitions, to say nothing of we poor mortals.
>
> I feel that people who want to be taken seriously on a
> subject, be they officials, reporters, or poor mortals,
> should make some effort to become informed on the subject.
>
Feel what you wish. It's a free country, so they say.
> > Do you know what
> > compact among what community I'm "touting," or are you guessing?
>
> Since we were discussing primaries in the United States,
> if you're not talking about the compact of the United States,
> perhaps you should explain how whatever other compact you
> are discussing is relevant.
>
"We" discussed primaries first. Then "we" discussed your notion
of "rights"; and I discussed that generally without specifying
anything other than a republic or democracy. My privilege.
> > You don't know, unless you've recently arrived from an outpost on
> > Titan and are sitting as a lump between my shoulders, with a
> > little tendril connection into my spinal cord, John Paul; and
> > since I've just checked I'm pretty sure you aren't doing that.
>
> I don't see that comments about my tendrils help the
> discussion at all.
>
See or don't see what you will.
> If I'm mistaken about which compact you're talking about,
> just tell which compact it is that you are talking about.
>
Any covenant, agreement, constitution, law, regulation or order
that governs whether one of true agreement or unilateral fiat or
adhesion.
> > Please
> > spare me recitation of junior high school level civics lessons,
> > John. Assume I passed those courses,
>
> My name is "John Paul", not "John".
>
Dear me, I left the "Paul" off, the second time I used your name.
Mea maximima culpa.
> Your advice doesn't help, as *I* have not taken those lessons
> or passed those courses.
>
It isn't advice. I've retired from giving advice, except
privately to those who specifically ask for it, and then it's
gratis and worth every penny. And you're lucky. You won't have to
unlearn parts of those 'lessons.'
> > > > Private parties have no inherent rights, all 'rights' are
> > > > defeasible, the musings of some seventeenth and eighteenth
> > > > century dreamers and agitators to the contrary notwithstanding,
> > > > unless and until they move to or create some L. Neil Smith
> > > > dreamworld and all mince around with Saturday night specials on
> > > > their hips, thinking they're nine feet tall and covered with hair
> > > > until someone shoots them in the back of the head -- or smothers
> > > > them with their own pillows while they sleep.
> > >
> > > Are you feeling okay?
> > >
> >
> > Feeling "fine," actually, just as Valentine Michael.
>
> Okay then.
>
I'm glad I've met your approval by passing the 'feeling okay?'
test.
> > You do read
> > Heinlein, don't you? Please try to understand his humor,
> > including his deliberate tensions and contradictions between
> > works written, as David Nesset does. ;-)
>
> It's quite possible to read and find humor in Heinlein's
> writings but not find humor in your paragraph above.
>
It's equally possible not to find humor in an inquiry, "Are you
feeling okay?"
> > [I don't think it's
> > defamatory, David. Cyrano minced when he was trying to be
> > provocative, and his swordsman's wrists were never limp.]
> > Heinlein said maintaining a democracy is the same as keeping an
> > automobile, inefficient, poorly engineered, and inherently
> > susceptible to disrepair running properly. Do I need cite
> > specific chapter and verse; or is that enough of a hint?
>
> I have little inclination to search posts here for deep
> hidden meanings. Just say what you mean.
I'll humor you by doing that the next time I have something to
say to you. How's this? I find the notion of artificial persons,
non-living, such as the political parties your earlier post in
this thread championed and all other corporations or other
artificial forms of business enterprise, having anything
approaching the same "rights" as human citizens or residents
under the Constitution completely silly. And so would the
founders of this country, as did Heinlein. So did everyone else
until another older, bunch of politicians in black robes slipped
it by us in the Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad
(1886) decision a century or so ago. Read Friday. And see,
http://reclaimdemocracy.org/personhood/
--
David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, Lt.(jg), USN, R'td, 1907-88
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23936
From: debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 05:26:46 GMT
Subject: Re: The First Gathering Remembered
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Hi Les!
There's pictures of the First Gathering on my website at:
http://www.dahoudek.com/pages/First.htm
Not too high-res. Don't know where the video is--I recall I put the
footage together at the tv station I was at and had Bill D. run copies
at the video dup house he worked at, sent them out.
Second Gathering pics at:
http://www.dahoudek.com/pages/second.htm
Other Forum pics linked from my main photo page:
http://www.dahoudek.com/pages/photo.htm
The First Gathering was great. I arrived late the first day. It was
the 4th of July weekend the year of the big floods on the Mississippi
and I drove through a very flooded, traffic massively detoured, Iowa
to get to Missouri. Hot day and my air conditioner didn't work. About
30 seconds after meeting everyone we were all the old friends we
already were but with faces attached ;-) . Wasn't quite my first
meeting with Internet/Forum friends--Jai had visited on a trip through
Minneapolis earlier, but close to it.
I still hadn't actually met Geo in person at that point (and he
wasn't at the First Gathering). We first physically met the next
spring at MiniCon in Minnesota. Hmmm... yeah. I met you-all in person
in July 1993, flew out to North Carolina and spent a weekend with Doc
& Linda in early '94, met up with Geo in person the first time in
April '94, and got married in April '95--three years to the month
after I first posted a note on the Heinlein Forum that caught his
attention about how "Aliens" was "Starship Troopers" without the
politics. We were talking about our email correspondence just today
(Geo's birthday!)--I have the printouts, approx. 6000 single-spaced
typewritten pages covering that three year span. Our tenth wedding
anniversary is this coming April (guess those flaky Internet marriages
can work out!).
At the First Gathering, I loved the bemused faces of the Butler
Library staff to have an enthusiastic herd of Heinleiners descend on
them. A pic I took there just got a Web reprint on a site the Heinlein
Society links to ('cept they credited it to Geo).
I also _vividly_ recall chiggers. We don't have chiggers in
Minnesota so they were new. And unpleasant. Like little spots of
burning acid on one's legs.
Deb Houdek Rule
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.heinleinprize.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23937
From: debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 05:47:38 GMT
Subject: Re: The First Gathering Remembered
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
>I'd also forgotten how embarrassing much of my poetry is.
Actually, I'm not much for poetry, but yours I always liked (hence
that delightful haiku of yours I used in "Earthscape". Also SIFI
Rob's, and all the others--Rosie's comes to mind. Heck, I don't think
we ever had anything not good in Galactic Citizen, fiction, articles,
poetry, and some excellent artwork.
I was recalling my one-and-only poem the other day. Don't know if
you remember it. Wasn't in GC though it actually was published about
half a dozen or more places, mostly in Mensa world and regional
publications but some other places too (didn't make a dime, though). I
also posted it online on *P on the Heinlein Forum and, as I recall,
eleven Forum chums responded with what they thought it meant (it was
about the celebrations after the first Gulf War). Eleven entirely
different interpretations of my meaning, only one of which matched my
own. That was fun. Similar to my experience in film school showing my
films and then having everyone tell me what the deep inner meaning was
and describe all the symbolism I'd put in (to my amazement as I didn't
think I'd put any in).
Deb Houdek Rule
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.heinleinprize.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23938
From: William J. Keaton"
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 01:55:43 -0400
Subject: Re: The First Gathering Remembered
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Les Vrolyk" <les@vrolyk.org> wrote in message
news:414907c8.211600531@news.sff.net...
> Sigh.
> I was un-sleeping the other night and found myself reminiscing about
> the first Heinlein Forum Gathering.
> the bluff and we almost got arrested for having snack food wars on the
> lake.
Excuse me? Some of is DID have to make the trip into Butler to pay our debt
to society!!
Cap'n WJaKe
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23939
From: William J. Keaton"
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 02:05:49 -0400
Subject: Re: The First Gathering Remembered
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"JT" <JT@REM0VEsff.net> wrote
> I bet there's a "First Gathering Report" out there--I know it was in a
> Galactic Citizen and that was compiled from Prodigy postings. WJaKe
> or Deb might have the article electronically. I think there's some
> videotape, too, but that might have been from the second one.
Retrieving that version of Galactic Citizen from electronic sources is going
to be problematic. I may have to sit down and scan some of my early issues,
as I no longer have the program I used to create it.
Ahhh, what a trip!
> >People arrived. Things were drunk.
> I'll say--I've still got one of the empty bottles of George Dickel
> from that weekend on my Heinlein shelf.
Hmmm, I thought _I_ had the original Dickel bottle on my shelf. One that's
been refilled for subsequent Gatherings, but still retains an essence of the
original bottle.
> Actually, WJaKe and Stew did get arrested. Steve posted bail or signed
> for them as a MO resident or something, and I think we took up a
> collection to pay their fines!
Actually, we got the equivalent of a traffic ticket. We WOULD have been
hauled off the river right then and there, had Steve not been a MO resident.
And we took up a collection to pay for the criminal activities of the entire
Heinlein mob. But the Captain is responsible for the actions of his crew, so
I was willing to take the punishment for my loyal crew of scallawags. (and
greatly appreciate the financial support from all!!)
Cap'n WJaKe
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23940
From: debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 06:03:31 GMT
Subject: Re: This might make Deb happier....
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
>Well, at least it's closer to making Han -change- over time.
Ah... the rule for a good protagonist ;-) Oh... wait... the
protagonist is supposed to change over _his_ time, not ours!
>How is this different than Heinlein revising upon republication or
>Mrs. H. finally releasing the "Uncut" Heinleins? (Gasp--on topic!)
>After all, that's the story he really -wanted- to tell, but couldn't
>get published. There are parallels.
Reverse parallels, as I see it. What Lucas is doing _isn't_ what he
originally intended and had someone else change it, or require it to
be changed. It's what he himself originally did and now is hedging,
softening, fuzzying, making more kid-friendly marketable, perhaps (?).
And I don't buy the bit that Lucas always intended Star Wars to be
this grand set of three trilogies (renaming the first from "Star Wars"
to "A New Hope"--I've read the first draft script of the first Star
Wars. It bears little to no resemblance to the story that ultimately
ended up on film (if you've ever read "Dark Crystal" by Alan Dean
Foster, that's effectively the story told in the first draft of "Star
Wars", and Luke's name was Luke Starkiller or something like that). I
can't claim deep insider info on the subject, but I was closely
associated with a number of people working on and involved with the
first three Star Wars movies at the time they were in production and
these things that have evolved/changed since this second trilogy came
into being weren't even glimmers in anyone's thoughts back then as far
as I can tell--no hints or rumors of desires to change the original
stories or characters at all.
BTW, Lucas' first sf film, THX-1138, is being released. I've seen
the student film version of that he did (I actually like it better
than the theatre version), plus--the really neat part--another student
film he did that is utterly and completely ghastly, horrible, awful.
They liked to show us that one so that it could be seen that even the
great ones could create garbage on occassion.
Deb Houdek Rule
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.heinleinprize.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23941
From: William J. Keaton"
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 02:12:05 -0400
Subject: Speaking of Gatherings...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Guess who I ran into at the "Dead Dog" Party in Boston, the last night of
the Worldcon.
Had to be about 2AM, we had just finished taking down the last big screen
from the movie room, and I was prowling the Con Suite (site of the party)
looking for chocolate. I spied a bowl of M&Ms sitting on a table and pounced
on it. Who was sitting on the other side of that bowl?
Nights.
Yup, one Gene Sargent himself. I tried to give him instructions on how to
find this place, but exhaustion and several shots of 21 year old scotch
(yum!) may have made it difficult for me to provide accurate info.
Are you out there, Nights?
WJaKe
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23942
From: debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 06:19:49 GMT
Subject: Re: This might make Deb happier....
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
>I've got them on tape, maybe I will have set up my digital recorder
>stuff by then so I can preserve that version. ;)
So... picturing your kids going to be introduced to Star Wars (using
the broad, general version of the term "Star Wars" not the original
title of the first--now 4th--movie) and you really want them to fall
in love with it--where would you start them? With the first of the new
ones (Phantom Menace?), with the re-edited "A New Hope" (Han neutered
completely), with the re-re-edited "A New Hope" (Han slightly less
emasculated), or with the original "Star Wars" (no "A New Hope"
subtitle)?
Oh, BTW, if someone a couple centuries from now wants to remake and
reinterpret "Star Wars" as is sometimes done with Shakespeare--cool,
no problem! It doesn't change the original ;-)
Deb Houdek Rule
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.heinleinprize.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23943
From: debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 06:49:25 GMT
Subject: Re: Speaking of Gatherings...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 02:12:05 -0400, "William J. Keaton"
<wjake@prodigy.net> wrote:
>Nights.
I think we've run into Gene/Nights at every WorldCon we've been to,
from Scotland in '95 (there's a pic of him on my website from there,
too) to last year's in Toronto where we spotted him on the street
about five minutes after we arrived.
Have you noticed, WJaKe, how many people you recognize now at a
WorldCon? I don't mean of the actual friends and folks you've met,
etc., but in general recognize the people and faces as the same ones
you've seen before? It's kinda neat--a homey, familiar feel. We ran
into a lady in Scotland in '95 that looked very familiar, and she
remembered us too. She was Scottish. Then we all put it together--we'd
seen her in Denver, CO at the first Highlander con. We chatted (and
argued politics) for a pleasant while. I loved the small-worldliness
of it.
Next year Scotland again. Scotland '95 was our 'honeymoon' trip. I'm
hoping to tack on a side-trip to Norway onto Scotland '05--I've
researched my family history and now know where a good many of the old
family sites are, and have exchanged emails with several relatives
(distant relatives) there.
Anyone else planning to go to the Glasgow WorldCon next year?
Deb Houdek Rule
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.heinleinprize.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23944
From: Filksinger"
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 02:41:39 -0700
Subject: Re: Speaking of Gatherings...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Deb Houdek Rule wrote:
<snip>
>
> Anyone else planning to go to the Glasgow WorldCon next year?
I am afraid there is no real chance, barring lottery winnings.
OTOH, the NASFiC (North American Science Fiction Convention), which is held
in the US every year that Worldcon is abroad, is just outside of Seattle
next year. That, I will be going to. Even if I didn't want to, my wife and
children would make me.
--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23945
From: JT
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 21:26:18 -0400
Subject: Re: The First Gathering Remembered
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 02:05:49 -0400, "William J. Keaton"
<wjake@prodigy.net> wrote:
>
>Hmmm, I thought _I_ had the original Dickel bottle on my shelf. One that's
>been refilled for subsequent Gatherings, but still retains an essence of the
>original bottle.
>
Yes, you have the original bottle, for sure. If I remember right,
there were three bottles consumed over that long weekend. Mine is
empty--I doubt there's even any kind of vapor in there! ;)
JT
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23946
From: les@vrolyk.org (Les Vrolyk)
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 02:02:57 GMT
Subject: Re: This might make Deb happier....
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 06:19:49 GMT, debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek
Rule) wrote:
> So... picturing your kids going to be introduced to Star Wars (using
>the broad, general version of the term "Star Wars" not the original
>title of the first--now 4th--movie) and you really want them to fall
>in love with it--where would you start them?
Well, we started with the edited version of the old trilogy, just
because that's what we own on video. Jack loves Star Wars and asks to
watch it all the time. Course, I also have the first two in the newer
trilogy and Jack prefers those. He really likes Anakin. We try to
get him more excited about the old ones. The other day I asked him if
he wanted to watch A New Hope with Luke and he said, "No, I want to
watch the father one." Meaning Anakin, who he knows is Luke's father.
What a kid! He's only 3!
Les
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23947
From: les@vrolyk.org (Les Vrolyk)
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 02:12:09 GMT
Subject: Re: The First Gathering Remembered
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 01:55:43 -0400, "William J. Keaton"
<wjake@prodigy.net> wrote:
>Excuse me? Some of is DID have to make the trip into Butler to pay our debt
>to society!!
>
>Cap'n WJaKe
>
>
Aye, aye, Skipper!
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23948
From: les@vrolyk.org (Les Vrolyk)
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 02:14:05 GMT
Subject: Re: The First Gathering Remembered
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 05:26:46 GMT, debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek
Rule) wrote:
>
> Hi Les!
>
> There's pictures of the First Gathering on my website at:
> http://www.dahoudek.com/pages/First.htm
>
Deb,
Did you know that when you do a search on google for "Heinlein's
birthplace" that is the first site that comes up? Thanks for the
links. You and Geo have amazing sites!
Les
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23949
From: les@vrolyk.org (Les Vrolyk)
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 02:18:23 GMT
Subject: Re: The First Gathering Remembered
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Ah! I remembered right and found this link too...
JT has pictures on the HF sff.net page.
http://www.sff.net/people/HF/pictures.htm
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23950
From: John Paul Vrolyk
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 19:17:48 -0700
Subject: Re: State's Rights to run elections
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"David M. Silver" wrote:
> I find the notion of artificial persons,
> non-living, such as the political parties your earlier post in
> this thread championed and all other corporations or other
> artificial forms of business enterprise, having anything
> approaching the same "rights" as human citizens or residents
> under the Constitution completely silly. And so would the
> founders of this country, as did Heinlein. So did everyone else
> until another older, bunch of politicians in black robes slipped
> it by us in the Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad
> (1886) decision a century or so ago.
Although I find treating an organization as a person
per se a bit silly, I find talking about the "rights"
of an organization to be a convienient shorthand for
the rights of the members that make it up. A person
should not lose their freedom of association because
they joined a political party. The freedom of
association of a political party *is* the freedom of
association of it's memebers.
There is plenty of other special treatment that
corporations, unions, churches, and other groups,
receive by law that concern me more than that they
are, in some sense, considered "persons".
> Read Friday.
As I recall, a major theme of _Friday_ was that the
prevailing definition of a person with rights unjustly
excluded "artificial persons".
--
John Paul Vrolyk
jp@vrolyk.org
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23951
From: William J. Keaton"
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 22:59:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Speaking of Gatherings...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Deb Houdek Rule" <debrule@dahoudek.com> wrote
>
> I think we've run into Gene/Nights at every WorldCon we've been to,
> from Scotland in '95
I think I've seen him at every con since 96, when I started going.
> Have you noticed, WJaKe, how many people you recognize now at a
> WorldCon? I don't mean of the actual friends and folks you've met,
> etc., but in general recognize the people and faces as the same ones
> you've seen before?
Most definetly. Some of them are notable people, like Filthy Pierre, and
various former Con chairs. Some are just the gal I saw at the last three
Buffy/Angel panels There are some people I seek out each year, partly
because we work on the tech crew togehter, but mostly because I consider
them friends. Friends I only see once a year. (Ok, Marcie I see whenever I
go out to Vegas. And Linda's mad because I didn't tell her I was in NYC last
March, but most of them are the once-a-year variety.)
> Anyone else planning to go to the Glasgow WorldCon next year?
Yes. I still don't know what else to do on this trip, where else to go, what
else to see. Tips will be appreciated! I'll probably have 3 weeks total
time, counting the Con.
WJaKe
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23952
From: cdozo
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 22:09:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Speaking of Gatherings...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Check out sff.discuss.horses for the Riding in Scotland (and the UK)
discussion. There is some info there.
I was only in Scotland once. I was sixteen. It is beautiful. I bet
riding there would be fun.
Carol
=======
William J. Keaton wrote:
> "Deb Houdek Rule" <debrule@dahoudek.com> wrote
>
>> I think we've run into Gene/Nights at every WorldCon we've been to,
>>from Scotland in '95
>
>
> I think I've seen him at every con since 96, when I started going.
>
>
>> Have you noticed, WJaKe, how many people you recognize now at a
>>WorldCon? I don't mean of the actual friends and folks you've met,
>>etc., but in general recognize the people and faces as the same ones
>>you've seen before?
>
>
> Most definetly. Some of them are notable people, like Filthy Pierre, and
> various former Con chairs. Some are just the gal I saw at the last three
> Buffy/Angel panels There are some people I seek out each year, partly
> because we work on the tech crew togehter, but mostly because I consider
> them friends. Friends I only see once a year. (Ok, Marcie I see whenever I
> go out to Vegas. And Linda's mad because I didn't tell her I was in NYC last
> March, but most of them are the once-a-year variety.)
>
>
>
>> Anyone else planning to go to the Glasgow WorldCon next year?
>
>
> Yes. I still don't know what else to do on this trip, where else to go, what
> else to see. Tips will be appreciated! I'll probably have 3 weeks total
> time, counting the Con.
>
> WJaKe
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23953
From: Eli Hestermann
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 04:58:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Speaking of Gatherings...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Deb Houdek Rule wrote:
> Anyone else planning to go to the Glasgow WorldCon next year?
>
>
Hoping to. Unless our employment status changes again, time will
probably be a bigger issue than money.
I was hoping to be in Boston this year. It would've been cheap; I have
plenty of friends I could've stayed with there. But I had a grant to
finish writing and classes to prepare for.
--
Eli V. Hestermann
ehestermann@charter.net
"Vita brevis est, ars longa" - Seneca
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23954
From: debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 18:17:42 GMT
Subject: Re: Speaking of Gatherings...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
>Yes. I still don't know what else to do on this trip, where else to go, what
>else to see. Tips will be appreciated! I'll probably have 3 weeks total
>time, counting the Con.
England & Scotland are the easiest places on earth to tourist. Drive
any direction. Stop at any point. Walk any distance and stop. You'll
be standing at some amazing historical site. Lots of nice, cheap,
chain motels across the country so easy to find places to stop for the
night without reservations.
The first time I was there I wandered randomly for several
days--picked a hotel sight unseen, walked out looking for something to
eat and found the embarcation point of the Pilgrims to America, and
the pub where Henry V tried the traitors before heading to France.
Amazing. Next day went to the shipyards and saw the "Mary Rose", then
to Battle Abbey where the Battle of Hastings took place (which is
curiously in the town of "Battle", not "Hastings"--Hastings is about
eight miles south). Just no lack of stuff in concentrated areas.
You'll need several days in London, to be sure (get rid of the car,
don't try to drive in London). It's like Disneyland but everthing is
real. Do some of the walking tours. Tower of London, Westminster
Abbey, and the National Gallery. Never made it to the British Museum,
suspect it's several days minimum. Edinburgh in Scotland (castle,
Royal Mile--John Knox's house, Mary Queen of Scots residence) are
worth a minimum day. We want to see more Scotland this next trip.
If you're interested in Vikings, the Jorvik Viking Centre in York.
York, itself, has other treasures (including some genuinely terrifying
driving experiences--though Geo would say Leischester is worse--the
British are absolutely insane on the roads, good drivers but insane
bats-outta-hell in those scrawny little cars).
Stonehenge looks like Stonehenge, but there are more sites around it
that can be explored that are more interesting--walking trails lead to
many if you're ambitious.
Deb Houdek Rule
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.heinleinprize.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23955
From: debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 18:20:54 GMT
Subject: Re: Speaking of Gatherings...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
>Check out sff.discuss.horses for the Riding in Scotland
The Heinlein Forum classic moment "horeback riding in Scotland" must
now be mentioned. Hey, Angel! Are you out there? ;-)
Deb Houdek Rule
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.heinleinprize.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23956
From: JT
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 17:08:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Speaking of Gatherings...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 18:20:54 GMT, debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek
Rule) wrote:
>>Check out sff.discuss.horses for the Riding in Scotland
>
> The Heinlein Forum classic moment "horeback riding in Scotland" must
>now be mentioned. Hey, Angel! Are you out there? ;-)
>
>
I thought it, but I didn't write it. Warped minds think alike.... ;)
JT
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23957
From: RPostelnek"
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 22:36:28 -0500
Subject: Re: Speaking of Gatherings...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"William J. Keaton" <wjake@prodigy.net> wrote in message
Spend several days in London, use the Underground. Go to the theater, there
is a half price ticket place in Leiceister (spelling?) Square. Also go to
Stonehedge and Stirling Cathedral. They are fairly near each other. The
Cathedral is beautiful. There are loads of places to go.
Rosie
>
> > Anyone else planning to go to the Glasgow WorldCon next year?
>
> Yes. I still don't know what else to do on this trip, where else to go,
what
> else to see. Tips will be appreciated! I'll probably have 3 weeks total
> time, counting the Con.
>
> WJaKe
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23958
From: Filksinger"
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 19:03:41 -0700
Subject: Re: Speaking of Gatherings...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Deb Houdek Rule wrote:
> Stonehenge looks like Stonehenge, but there are more sites around it
> that can be explored that are more interesting--walking trails lead to
> many if you're ambitious.
In that case, I'll settle for the Washington Stonehenge.
--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23959
From: Filksinger"
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 19:24:33 -0700
Subject: And Now for Something Entirely Different
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Here's a webpage on the www.dw.org website, the web page for the German
radio service Deutsche-Welle.
http://klingon.dw-world.de/klingon/index.php
--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23960
From: Bill Dauphin
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 23:45:11 -0400
Subject: Re: The First Gathering Remembered
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On 9/17/04 1:26 AM, in article 414a70c5.3110322697@NEWS.SFF.NET, "Deb Houdek
Rule" <debrule@dahoudek.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Les!
>
> There's pictures of the First Gathering on my website at:
> http://www.dahoudek.com/pages/First.htm
>
> Not too high-res. Don't know where the video is--I recall I put the
> footage together at the tv station I was at and had Bill D. run copies
> at the video dup house he worked at, sent them out.
I've never made it to a Gathering, but I have... somewhere... if I can only
find it... a copy of that video. I also still have my copy of the RAHketeer
Handbook. Have to dig those out sometime...
-JovBill
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23961
From: Wayne H. Morgan"
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 11:50:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Pro or Con?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
georule@civilwarstlouis.com wrote:
> The problem with the anti-Kerry Swift boat guys is that they are quite upfront
> in saying that if Kerry hadn't made the accusations of war crimes *after*
> his service (which, btw, even John McCain who is highly critical of efforts
> to dissect Kerry's war record says his later statements should be fair game
> for comment), they wouldn't be doing what they are doing. They clearly communicate
> just how offended and angry they are about the war crimes charges issue
> and how central it is as motivation for what they are doing now.
>
> To me that is illegitimate and highly colors their credibility in a negative
> fashion as regards their recollections as offered in recent years (as opposed
> to the documentation at the time). I'm entirely comfortable with them going
> after him on the war crimes thing --don't drag the other into it. Unfortunately,
> they have, and not by accident --it (his war record) was the "publicity
> wedge" they needed to get a public conversation on the other issue (war
> crimes), which is much more "ho-hum" to the general non-Vietnam serving
> public.
>
> I sympathize with their pain, and have no doubt it is genuine. My stepfather
> (deceased; served as a boilerman on a Navy destroyer off the coast in the
> mid-60's) wouldn't support anything having to do with Jane Fonda on any
> terms or for any reason. I once got him to accept me buying something for
> him by threatening to send the money to Tom Hayden's campaign if he didn't.
> Those guys who feel that deeply on these kinds of issues are still out there,
> still pissed, and still hurt.
I don't think the Swifties would be an issue if Kerry hadn't based his
campaign on the "I'm a War Hero and I got three Purple Hearts" story.
That, contrasted with his post-active-duty anti-war activities AND his
record in Congress, is enough, in my opinion, to make the Swifties
relevant. It's 200+ to 2 in a "he said - he said" argument.
I make no secret of how I stand in this. I was a volunteer in 1970 who
got drafted while I was in Basic Training. I didn't have any use for
the Anti-War crowd then, and I don't have any use for them now. I
wouldn't want Jane Fonda as Commander in Chief, and I certainly don't
want her anti-war partner, John Kerry.
Wayne Morgan
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23962
From: debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 17:10:57 GMT
Subject: Re: And Now for Something Entirely Different
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
> Deutsche-Welle.
>http://klingon.dw-world.de/klingon/index.php
Ummmm... okay. That was weird. A bit like finding the Wall Street
Journal is publishing an edition in Klingon. And to find the Germans
that intensely interested in the Klingon culture and lifestyle is less
weird than it is... disturbing.
Deb Houdek Rule
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.heinleinprize.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23963
From: Filksinger"
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 11:12:27 -0700
Subject: Re: Pro or Con?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Wayne H. Morgan wrote:
<snip>
> I don't think the Swifties would be an issue if Kerry hadn't based his
> campaign on the "I'm a War Hero and I got three Purple Hearts" story.
> That, contrasted with his post-active-duty anti-war activities AND his
> record in Congress, is enough, in my opinion, to make the Swifties
> relevant. It's 200+ to 2 in a "he said - he said" argument.
That 200+ list is a load of bullshit.
1. The list is misleading. The list isn't a list of people who were with
Kerry and say "Kerry was a bad officer", or "Kerry lied to get medals", or
even "Kerry lied against Vietnam vets after Vietnam." It is a list of people
who were swift boat veterans, many of whom never met Kerry, who now oppose
him as president. As such, it is meaningless as a measure of Kerry's Vietnam
record.
2. People who signed often don't know anything about Kerry's war record. A
lot of the testimonial quotations from veterans that I have seen from the
SBVfT and their allies clearly show that many of these _didn't know a damn
thing about Kerry in Vietnam from personal experience, or even from other
vets while in Vietnam_. Many of the testimonials clearly show that they
didn't know anything about Kerry's claimed activities in Vietnam until they
were told by the SBVfT. Other testimonials clearly show that the authors are
signing because of Kerry's anti-war activities, and make no claim about his
Vietnam record. This makes both the testimonials and the signatures utterly
worthless as a measure of the validity of the SBVfT claims, or even on the
question of Kerry's worth as an officer.
3. The list has been challenged as fraudulent. Many of the people on that
list have denied ever signing it. Many stated that they were asked to sign
and had refused. Others say they were never asked. Many state that they not
only do not agree with the list, but that they categorically _disagree_ with
the list and the SBVfT.
Only a fraction of the people who signed that list have actually stated that
they had direct experience with the quality of officer that Kerry was, and
only a tiny handful claim outright that Kerry lied to get medals _of their
own knowledge_. And Kerry had a lot more than two eyewitnesses claiming that
the SBVfT lied.
> I make no secret of how I stand in this. I was a volunteer in 1970
> who got drafted while I was in Basic Training. I didn't have any use
> for the Anti-War crowd then, and I don't have any use for them now. I
> wouldn't want Jane Fonda as Commander in Chief, and I certainly don't
> want her anti-war partner, John Kerry.
I don't want John Kerry either. This has, however, absolutely no relevance
to the question of the trustworthiness of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth
and their "list".
--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23964
From: Filksinger"
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 11:26:53 -0700
Subject: Re: And Now for Something Entirely Different
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Deb Houdek Rule wrote:
>> Deutsche-Welle.
>> http://klingon.dw-world.de/klingon/index.php
>
> Ummmm... okay. That was weird. A bit like finding the Wall Street
> Journal is publishing an edition in Klingon. And to find the Germans
> that intensely interested in the Klingon culture and lifestyle is less
> weird than it is... disturbing.
I don't know. If the Fourth Reich is started by people who acted like
Klingons, I might be reassured.
1. Klingons, even when possessing ranged weapons, often feel the need to run
up and hit their enemies with batleths.
2. Klingons have only proven effective against the Federation and other Star
Trek peoples. These enemies:
a. Are sufficiently handicapped that even their best people seem to only
walk briskly in emergencies, while talking about how little time they have
and how they might be too late.
b. Can only shoot their enemies at point blank ranges with weapons
supposedly having much greater ranges than modern firearms.
c. Frequently miss at ranges that were considered fairly short when
flintlocks were the rage, with ultra-high-tech military equipment.
d. Have trouble hitting those self-same charging Klingons.
e. Are too stupid to put sights on those same weapons, which would
hopefully allow them to at least fire at ranges the US Army wouldn't laugh
at.
f. When faced with enemies who cannot be killed with energy weapons, but
can be killed with projectile weapons, only once had the brains to have the
computer give them firearms instead, even though the computer should be able
to produce M16A2 rifles by tens or hundreds per minute.
3. Klingons seem to have the same inability to fire accurately. No wonder
they prefer to charge.
If we must have a war with Germany, it might not be a bad thing if they act
like Klingons.:)
--
Filksinger (Who likes Star Trek in spite of finding it often silly)
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23965
From: Mitch Wagner"
Date: 21 Sep 2004 20:26:59 GMT
Subject: Re: And Now for Something Entirely Different
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net> wrote in message
news:41507274.0@news.sff.net:
> I don't know. If the Fourth Reich is started by people who acted like
> Klingons, I might be reassured.
That's great, Filksinger.
Mitch Wagner
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23966
From: JT
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 18:29:05 -0400
Subject: Re: This might make Deb happier....
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On 9 Sep 2004 13:23:59 GMT, JT@REM0VE.sff.net (John Tilden) wrote:
>(See the next to last paragraph about the cantina scene. ;) --JT
>
Well, Wal-Mart might be an evil empire unto itself, but sometimes you
can't beat low prices. ;) I got the Trilogy today for something like
$39.81 plus tax. That is the lowest price I've seen for having it in
my hands today!
They were all out of Widescreen, the clerk had to go into the back to
open up the next case. I wonder how many millions were sold/pre-sold
today?
JT
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23967
From: Wayne H. Morgan"
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:36:18 -0500
Subject: Re: Pro or Con?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Filksinger wrote:
> Wayne H. Morgan wrote:
> <snip>
>
>>I don't think the Swifties would be an issue if Kerry hadn't based his
>>campaign on the "I'm a War Hero and I got three Purple Hearts" story.
>>That, contrasted with his post-active-duty anti-war activities AND his
>>record in Congress, is enough, in my opinion, to make the Swifties
>>relevant. It's 200+ to 2 in a "he said - he said" argument.
>
>
> That 200+ list is a load of bullshit.
>
> 1. The list is misleading. The list isn't a list of people who were with
> Kerry and say "Kerry was a bad officer", or "Kerry lied to get medals", or
> even "Kerry lied against Vietnam vets after Vietnam." It is a list of people
> who were swift boat veterans, many of whom never met Kerry, who now oppose
> him as president. As such, it is meaningless as a measure of Kerry's Vietnam
> record.
>
> 2. People who signed often don't know anything about Kerry's war record. A
> lot of the testimonial quotations from veterans that I have seen from the
> SBVfT and their allies clearly show that many of these _didn't know a damn
> thing about Kerry in Vietnam from personal experience, or even from other
> vets while in Vietnam_. Many of the testimonials clearly show that they
> didn't know anything about Kerry's claimed activities in Vietnam until they
> were told by the SBVfT. Other testimonials clearly show that the authors are
> signing because of Kerry's anti-war activities, and make no claim about his
> Vietnam record. This makes both the testimonials and the signatures utterly
> worthless as a measure of the validity of the SBVfT claims, or even on the
> question of Kerry's worth as an officer.
>
> 3. The list has been challenged as fraudulent. Many of the people on that
> list have denied ever signing it. Many stated that they were asked to sign
> and had refused. Others say they were never asked. Many state that they not
> only do not agree with the list, but that they categorically _disagree_ with
> the list and the SBVfT.
>
> Only a fraction of the people who signed that list have actually stated that
> they had direct experience with the quality of officer that Kerry was, and
> only a tiny handful claim outright that Kerry lied to get medals _of their
> own knowledge_. And Kerry had a lot more than two eyewitnesses claiming that
> the SBVfT lied.
>
>
>>I make no secret of how I stand in this. I was a volunteer in 1970
>>who got drafted while I was in Basic Training. I didn't have any use
>>for the Anti-War crowd then, and I don't have any use for them now. I
>>wouldn't want Jane Fonda as Commander in Chief, and I certainly don't
>>want her anti-war partner, John Kerry.
>
>
> I don't want John Kerry either. This has, however, absolutely no relevance
> to the question of the trustworthiness of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth
> and their "list".
>
OK, and I'll admit to another bit of prejudice here. Of all my
contemporaries who were in Vietnam in the late 60s, I only know of one
who came back (outside of a coffin) before his tour was over and he had
part of a hand blown off. I've heard the comments of his former
commander and at least one of his contemporaries; they weren't
complimentary. I've seen the footage of his "home movies" and heard
folks talk about how they were made. I've watched his testimony to
Congress. I can make my own judgments about his credibility vs. the
Swifties. The fact that I'm willing to believe them may be because they
play to what I've been seeing of the man; he has no morals to speak of;
he has no core values he's willing to talk about; he's a lightweight.
Wayne Morgan
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23968
From: debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 22:23:53 GMT
Subject: Re: And Now for Something Entirely Different
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
>I don't know. If the Fourth Reich is started by people who acted like
>Klingons, I might be reassured.
Good points, all.
Containable, badly executed universal domination havoc. With gak.
Deb Houdek Rule
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.heinleinprize.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23969
From: Ed Johnson
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 23:04:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Pro or Con?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Wayne:
I am in agreement with you 99.44%; and for the same reasons.
I volunteered in 1970 and I was not being drafted. I had at least
two buddies in basic training who carried their draft notices folded
in their wallets! That war and those times are not soon forgotten.
Hanoi Jane and her speaking partner are not my first choice for any
leadership rolls either.
Ed J
On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:36:18 -0500, "Wayne H. Morgan"
<waynehmorgan@netscape.com> wrote:
>> Wayne H. Morgan wrote:
>> <snip>
>> er bit of prejudice here. Of all my
>contemporaries who were in Vietnam in the late 60s, I only know of one
>who came back (outside of a coffin) before his tour was over and he had
>part of a hand blown off. I've heard the comments of his former
>commander and at least one of his contemporaries; they weren't
>complimentary. I've seen the footage of his "home movies" and heard
>folks talk about how they were made. I've watched his testimony to
>Congress. I can make my own judgments about his credibility vs. the
>Swifties. The fact that I'm willing to believe them may be because they
>play to what I've been seeing of the man; he has no morals to speak of;
>he has no core values he's willing to talk about; he's a lightweight.
>
>Wayne Morgan
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23970
From: William J. Keaton"
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 02:39:15 -0400
Subject: Re: And Now for Something Entirely Different
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net> wrote in message
news:414f921a.0@news.sff.net...
> Here's a webpage on the www.dw.org website, the web page for the German
> radio service Deutsche-Welle.
>
> http://klingon.dw-world.de/klingon/index.php
>
This story was making the rounds at the Voice of America last week, I'm
preparing my resume to bet the first Chief of the Klingon Branch. (Can't
have DW out-doing VOA, now can we?)
WJaKe
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23971
From: Filksinger"
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 21:44:06 -0700
Subject: Black Box Voting
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
If anybody is interested in reading up on what may soon be the biggest
election scandal in US history, you might try www.blackboxvoting.org. (Note:
No connection with www.blackboxvoting._com_.) Hasn't happened yet, but they
explain how it could. Half the votes in the next presidential election are
going to be recorded on Diebold voting machines, and Diebold's software is
so insecure and easily tampered with that _anybody_ could take over the
election. In fact, it appears to be _designed_ to be used fraudulently.
Among other demonstrations, they have offered to show a trained chimpanzee
hacking the software.
They also have an e-book, Black Box Voting: Ballot Tampering in the 21st
Century, at http://www.blackboxvoting.org/?q=node/view/23. Might make for
interesting reading for anyone who is interested.
--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23972
From: Filksinger"
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 22:58:23 -0700
Subject: The State of Computing
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Brian Livingston gives a frightening analysis of the current state of the
computing world. I hope you are all using all the protections he describes.
Unfortunately, good anti-spam tools that accurately block bad emails without
blocking good and are easy to use are hard to come by.
http://windowssecrets.com/040923/
--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23973
From: Mitch Wagner"
Date: 25 Sep 2004 20:22:17 GMT
Subject: Re: The State of Computing
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
It's fairly easy to protect yourself--if you know what you're doing.
My brother-in-law was in town to visit this week. He doesn't know much
of anything about computers. He knows enough to send and receive e-mail,
use Microsoft Word, look at pages on the web, and that's pretty much it.
Give you an idea of his level of knowledge: I suggested he download and
install some software on his PC, and he didn't know how to do it. He
doesn't even know how to DOWNLOAD something.
This is not to say that my brother is a dummy. Far from it. He reads a
great deal, has an encyclopedic knowledge of history, speaks Thai
fluently and probably other languages that I know about. He's a Vietnam
vet who stayed in Saigon for a couple of years after discharge, and has
lived much of his life since then in Thailand. He's a very accomplished
fellow. It's just that, unlike me, computers are a very small part of
his life.
He said he's never bought and sold anything on the web, or used online
banking.
Five years ago, I would have gone into full-on evangelism mode and
lectured him about the wunnaful benefits of online shopping and banking.
But last week? I just thought for a second, and offered two words of
advice. "Good. Don't." Too many opportunities for a beginner to get in
trouble.
Security threats haven't changed much the way *I* use the Internet. I
just take precautionary measures, and keep doing what I've been doing.
But security threats are closing the intenret to beginners.
Hmmm... I feel a column coming on....
Mitch Wagner
Mitch Wagner
"Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net> wrote in message
news:41550907.0@news.sff.net:
> Brian Livingston gives a frightening analysis of the current state of
> the
> computing world. I hope you are all using all the protections he
> describes.
> Unfortunately, good anti-spam tools that accurately block bad emails
> without
> blocking good and are easy to use are hard to come by.
>
> http://windowssecrets.com/040923/
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23974
From: Filksinger
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 02:20:27 -0700
Subject: Re: The State of Computing
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Mitch Wagner wrote:
> It's fairly easy to protect yourself--if you know what you're doing.
Sometimes, but it is getting harder, and has been getting harder for
years. Now its getting to be a pain even for professionals. The latest
security holes might get you in spite of every one of those suggestions,
plus obsessive OS patching, which he missed.
Once, all I had to do was never run executable attachments, don't run
software with particularly well-known and egregious security
vulnerabilities (i.e. IRC), and be careful where you got and how you
used floppy disks and downloaded software. Anti-virus was a luxury I
rarely used, firewalls were virtually unknown and of little use to most
home users, viewing data was perfectly safe, and email spam was a minor
annoyance, assuming you ever got any.
Now, I run anti-virus (AVG), a software firewall (Kerio), a hardware NAT
router with firewall functions (2Wire), anti-spam (was Spambayes, now
for the moment Firefox, at least until I have SpamAssassin up on the
network), and anti-spyware (Lavasoft and Spybot for scanning, Spybot,
SpywareGuard, and SpywareBlaster for continuous protection). I also
patch Windows automatically, except SP 2, which I have not yet
installed. (Other security on my network is deliberate overkill, as
practice for developing my skills as a network security professional.)
NOTE TO THOSE ON A BUDGET: Except for the hardware router, all of these
are _free_.
And in spite of all that, the latest Microsoft vulnerability could
conceivably get me if I also had either of the last two versions of MS
Office, in spite of everything I describe above, just by looking at a
JPEG. And Mozilla/Firefox/Thunderbird has a similar hole for bitmaps,
also just discovered.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23975
From: Filksinger
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 02:34:55 -0700
Subject: Warning About New Security Hole
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
If you are running Windows XP and have _not_ installed SP2 (which I
recommend that you don't do if you haven't yet), or are running an older
version of Windows, then this is important.
There is a flaw in how a large number of Microsoft products, including
the latest two versions of Office, Windows XP, Internet Explorer 6 SP1,
and who knows what else. It allows a person to attack your computer just
by getting you to look at a JPEG, even in your email or a web page.
Exploit code is already on the net. Expect an email worm or something
similar to hit computers across the web with this within the next month.
This is important, because, if you haven't installed SP2, or you are
running an older version of Windows, then Windows Update will _not_
fully protect you. To get the full treatment, go here:
http://www.microsoft.com/security/bulletins/200409_jpeg.mspx
Safe computing, everybody!
--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23976
From: Dean White"
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 09:43:44 -0500
Subject: Re: The State of Computing
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net> wrote in message
news:415689d9.0@news.sff.net...
>
> And in spite of all that, the latest Microsoft vulnerability could
> conceivably get me if I also had either of the last two versions of MS
> Office, in spite of everything I describe above, just by looking at a
> JPEG. And Mozilla/Firefox/Thunderbird has a similar hole for bitmaps,
> also just discovered.
>
>
Microsoft has patches for the jpeg buffer overrun though I admit it's
somewhat of a pain to go through.
You either have to use the latest software update that comes with the XP SP2
or go to the Office GDI update page at
http://www.microsoft.com/security/bulletins/200409_jpeg_tool.mspx
--
www.DeanWhite.net
has contact information
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23977
From: Bill Dauphin
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 19:15:32 -0400
Subject: A Modest Request
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Hello, cobbers:
Fair warning: This post contains a fundraising request. If that offends you,
please accept my apologies and hit "Next" now.
Still with me? Cool.
Most of you know at least some of this story, but just to recap: In the late
summer of 2001, my daughter Mara was diagnosed with a brain tumor, which
turned out to be malignant. 14 hours of surgery removed the cancer, but for
nearly a year our local children's hospital, the Connecticut Children's
Medical Center in Hartford, was virtually a home away from home for us while
Mara went through chemo and radiotherapy.
I'm pleased to report that we've just marked 3 years post-diagnosis, and
Mara has had no detectable cancer since her surgery. (Even though 5 years is
the famous number, our oncologist tells me that 3 years is a significant
milestone for Mara's type of cancer.)
For the third consecutive year, I'm working to "pay forward" my family's
debt of gratitude to the doctors, nurses, and other professionals of CCMC,
without whom we would never have made it through this trial. In two weeks,
I'll be raising funds by running in the Huck Finn 5K race here in Hartford,
part of the Hartford Marathon weekend.
There are plenty of cancer-related charities, and they're all deserving of
support, but the funds I raise will be going directly to the "front lines"
-- the hematology/oncology floor at CCMC -- to immediately improve the lives
of families dealing with childhood cancer.
The easiest way to pledge is at my fundraising page...
http://www.justgiving.com/pfp/marasdad
....but if you're squeamish about using a credit card over the web, you can
send a check to me at:
Bill Dauphin
11 Olive Lane
Vernon, CT 06066
Please make checks out to me, and include "CCMC Donation" (OWTTE) in the
memo field.
Thanks in advance for your generosity...
-JovBill
PS: To those of you who have been impacted by this year's hurricanes, or
whose loved ones have been, I fully understand that your priorities may be
elsewhere. Speaking as one whose childhood home was flooded by tropical
storms on three separate occasions, my thoughts and prayers are with you.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23978
From: Bill Dauphin
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 19:36:24 -0400
Subject: Ooops!
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Well, I've just realized that my "reply-to" address was still showing up as
my old Netcom address, which hasn't been valid for years. Hopefully I've
fixed it now, but just in case, my e-mail is:
william.dauphin@comcast.net
-JovBill
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23979
From: cdozo
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 09:17:38 -0500
Subject: Virgin to Launch Commercial Space Flights
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
From Yahoo News...
LONDON - British entrepreneur Richard Branson said Monday that his
company plans to launch commercial space flights over the next few years.
Branson's Virgin transport, entertainment and communications group has
signed an agreement with pioneering aviation designer Burt Rutan to
build an aircraft based on Rutan's SpaceShipOne vessel, Branson said.
More at:
http://tinyurl.com/4b8ba
which is really:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=509&ncid=753&e=2&u=/ap/20040927/ap_on_bi_ge/britain_virgin_space_flights
and at:
http://tinyurl.com/6nm2n
which is really:
http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&q=virgin+space&btnG=Search+News
Carol
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23980
From: Ed Johnson
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 15:36:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Virgin to Launch Commercial Space Flights
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Sounds like it might be fun <g>.
Ed J
On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 09:17:38 -0500, cdozo <cadozo@planet-save.com>
wrote:
> From Yahoo News...
>
>LONDON - British entrepreneur Richard Branson said Monday that his
>company plans to launch commercial space flights over the next few years.
>
>Branson's Virgin transport, entertainment and communications group has
>signed an agreement with pioneering aviation designer Burt Rutan to
>build an aircraft based on Rutan's SpaceShipOne vessel, Branson said.
>
>More at:
>http://tinyurl.com/4b8ba
>which is really:
>http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=509&ncid=753&e=2&u=/ap/20040927/ap_on_bi_ge/britain_virgin_space_flights
>
>and at:
>http://tinyurl.com/6nm2n
>which is really:
>http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&q=virgin+space&btnG=Search+News
>
>Carol
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23981
From: Charles Graft
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 16:30:18 -0500
Subject: Re: Electoral College
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
John Paul Vrolyk wrote:
> That's why I said "pretend". It practice that's
> not how it is, but it's still the theory. It's only
> far-fetched, not impossible, that a strong-willed
> state gov't and a Supreme Court that can read and
> understand history could turn the tide.
>
> --
> John Paul Vrolyk
> jp@vrolyk.org
A nice thought., It will never happen. Maybe after the USA is history,
the next group will figure that letting the government define its limits doesn't
work.
--
<<Big Charlie>>
"Seen on the door to a light-wave lab: 'Do not look into laser with remaining
good eye.'"
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23982
From: Charles Graft
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 16:51:27 -0500
Subject: Re: The First Gathering Remembered
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Les--
You get me a bit teary eyed, I still have the video I put together
during it (Deb did a professional editing job). Beth hurt her foot
during the second Missouri Gathering; they did not make the first one.
By the second, they had moved to Indy and we convoyed out with them and
shared a room. I attended the first one with Nora and the kids (and
went on to a major tour of the western U.S.); the kids did not attend
the second.
--
<<Big Charlie>>
"Seen on the door to a light-wave lab: 'Do not look into laser with
remaining good eye.'"
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23983
From: Charles Graft
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 16:54:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Black Box Voting
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Filksinger--
They should have gone with Hart (who writes my royalty checks)
instead of Diebold. Or my actual design. That's the competition for
you.
--
<<Big Charlie>>
"Seen on the door to a light-wave lab: 'Do not look into laser with
remaining good eye.'"
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23984
From: Charles Graft
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 16:56:09 -0500
Subject: Re: The First Gathering Remembered
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
JT wrote:
> Hey Fader, that's your cue to talk about the next Gathering--hope your
> PC is rebuilt soon and you get a chance to throw out some more ideas.
> ;)
>
> --JT
He claims he is gaining on it.
Hey, everybody. Let him know you care. His current E-Mail is:
f.a.d.e.r55@sbcGlobal.net. Remove the periods.
--
<<Big Charlie>>
"Seen on the door to a light-wave lab: 'Do not look into laser with
remaining good eye.'"
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23985
From: Filksinger
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 18:34:26 -0700
Subject: Virgin in Space!
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
The Virgin Group, which controls Virgin Airlines, that is.
http://tinyurl.com/56htj
--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23986
From: Filksinger
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 18:35:51 -0700
Subject: Paperless Voting Illegal in California
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Its a step in the right direction.
http://tinyurl.com/3qya4
--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23987
From: Filksinger
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 19:52:30 -0700
Subject: Star Wars DVD Trilogy Review
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
For the real Star Wars fans out there. www.dvdverdict.com has an
11,000-word commentary on the entire series, with a slight emphasis on
the DVD release of the first three movies. There are several
commentators, with everything from an "overheard at a cocktail party"
monolog that was supposedly said to George Lucas shortly before the
release of Star Wars, to "Why Darth Vader Is the Hands-Down Most
Fearsome Movie Villain of All Time...Ever", a twenty item list that I
rather enjoyed. I would have included it below, but wasn't sure if that
qualified as "Fair Use".
http://tinyurl.com/5e7pp
--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23988
From: Filksinger
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 21:38:46 -0700
Subject: I'm Switching, Maybe You Should
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
OK, I'll admit it. Outlook Express and Internet Explorer have been, for
some time, the email client and browser of choice for me.
Of course, the price was right. Some 90% of the software I use is free,
and that's the way I like it (as if I had any choice at this time).
Additionally, there was familiarity: I knew them, inside and out. But
there were a number of other reasons.
First of all, compatibility. View websites in anything other than IE,
and they would frequently come up... strange. If you received an HTML
email, until recently, it was more likely to be legible in OE than any
other email client.
Second, features. OE had one feature that, all by itself, was nearly all
that I needed - newsgroups and email in one package. To me, the sheer
number of windows I often had opened, combined with the similarities
between email and newsgroup messages, made a unified client a clear
choice. Its other features were also good. I admit that the lack of a
text-only feature was almost a killer for me (I was sick of spammers
knowing if I opened a message because of a "webbug" image), but that was
introduced recently, keeping me around a bit longer. IE not only had a
lot of features itself, but it also was compatible with a very large
number of add-ons.
Third, support. IE and OE have the biggest support base imaginable. Find
a bug, error, or problem, do a Google search, and hit 3,000 sites with
recommendations. If Microsoft's support site exploded tomorrow, they
would still be better supported than anything else.
However, times change.
Microsoft has announced that the new, higher-security version of IE is
_only_ for Windows XP. If you are still using 2k, ME, or 9x, you get to
keep using the older, less secure version. Sure, they'll patch it (at
least some), but you will have a lower baseline across the board. This,
combined with the way that IE and OE are both targets, has convinced me
to recommend switching for anyone using anything prior to WinXP, and
suggest strongly that it might be a good idea for everyone.
For browsing, I now recommend ditching IE for Firefox, as soon as they
finalize it (it is in Preview Release now). Almost all websites view as
well or better in Firefox as in IE, and, if you want to view something
in IE, there is a plugin that will allow you to easily do so from inside
Firefox. (If you just love ActiveX, the source of most IE security
failures, you can add that to Firefox, too). The program has many good
features (including some that IE is missing), and a large number of
plugins and extensions that allow you to expand its features even
further. Support for plugins and extensions is thoroughly built-in, and
the number and variety of plugins and extensions shows this. Most
Mozilla or Netscape add-ons will work with it, as well. Support is good,
both on the Mozilla site and on various other sites.
Similar statements apply to Thunderbird, the stand-alone email client
from the Mozilla group. Only at 0.8 rather than 1.0, it is nevertheless
ready to stand on its own. Where IE has HTML or plain text, Thunderbird
has full HTML, simple HTML, and plain text, _and_ it automatically
blocks all images that are linked to a webserver. This kills all
"webbugs", even if you view your email in full HTML. It also switches
between the three modes more smoothly. TB has better support for
multiple identities and email addresses. Spam filtering is much better
than Outlook Express or Outlook, and the filters (instead of "mail
rules") are able to be set to filter on any header, making stand-alone
spam filters more usable. Outlook Express was add-on unfriendly, and
thus had few, while Thunderbird is designed with extension support as a
major feature, with quite a few extensions already available. Support,
as with Firefox, is good.
So, if you are using anything prior to WinXP, I recommend switching to
Firefox and Thunderbird. If you are using WinXP, I still recommend
giving it a try.
--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23989
From: Filksinger
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 21:46:50 -0700
Subject: Re: Virgin in Space!
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Oops. I was going to check to see if this was where I had originally
heard about this before I mentioned it, and completely forgot.
Filksinger wrote:
> The Virgin Group, which controls Virgin Airlines, that is.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/56htj
--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23990
From: William J. Keaton"
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 01:58:51 -0400
Subject: Re: I'm Switching, Maybe You Should
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Filk,
I have been using Firefox as a secondary browser, on a trial basis. So far,
it has proven to be fairly robust, mostly compatible, but seems to be a
little slower to load pages than IE.
Haven't tried Thunderbird for e-mail yet, may give a try soon, as I am
facing an ISP change in the next month. But that's another story.
Friends, if you haven't tried Firefox, you certainly should.
WJaKe
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23991
From: William J. Keaton"
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 02:07:15 -0400
Subject: Space Ship One
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Rutan's SpaceShip One is scheduled for a launch at 6AM Pacific time
Wednesday.
Yes, I know it will probably be history by the time most of you read this,
but I had to post a note about it!
WJaKe
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23992
From: William J. Keaton"
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 11:40:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Space Ship One
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Scary, somewhat scary. SS1 has just landed. I'm sorry, but you can't tell me
that that roll manuever on ascent was part of the flight profile. I'm off to
work, but I'll be checking in for the analysis of today's flight.
Scuttlebutt is that they may try again as early as Monday.
WJaKe
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23993
From: debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 18:36:53 GMT
Subject: Re: Star Wars DVD Trilogy Review
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
>commentators, with everything from an "overheard at a cocktail party"
I didn't read every word but was was struck by a wrongness in that
part. Kurosawa was not an emphasis at USC Film School where Lucas--and
I--went. I don't recall Kurosawa ever being mentioned, in fact. The
producer of "Three's Company" was, however. Kurosawa is artsy, but
he's not commercial. USC Cinema is completely and overtly commercial
in its teachings--it's not an artsy film school. There's _art_, and
the techniques of art, but the primary objective is practical
commercialism. If you can't make money off it, why bother to make it?
Lucas's "THX-1138", though spawned by a USC student film, is less a
USC-type film than is "Star Wars" because "Star Wars" is the epitomy
of what USC Cinema teaches--it made gobs of money. Lucas can claim
artistic motivations _now_ all he wants. I know the lessons he soaked
up there, and know he never shunned them.
Bringing in a strange bit of Heinlein Forum/Heinlein-related
connection... That philosophy fits Heinlein's write-for-money
assertions. Money is the sincerest form of flattery an artist can
receive to compliment their work.
Deb Houdek Rule
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.heinleinprize.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23994
From: Filksinger
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 13:12:18 -0700
Subject: Re: Star Wars DVD Trilogy Review
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Deb Houdek Rule wrote:
>>commentators, with everything from an "overheard at a cocktail party"
>
>
> I didn't read every word but was was struck by a wrongness in that
> part. Kurosawa was not an emphasis at USC Film School where Lucas--and
> I--went. I don't recall Kurosawa ever being mentioned, in fact. The
> producer of "Three's Company" was, however. Kurosawa is artsy, but
> he's not commercial. USC Cinema is completely and overtly commercial
> in its teachings--it's not an artsy film school. There's _art_, and
> the techniques of art, but the primary objective is practical
> commercialism. If you can't make money off it, why bother to make it?
> Lucas's "THX-1138", though spawned by a USC student film, is less a
> USC-type film than is "Star Wars" because "Star Wars" is the epitomy
> of what USC Cinema teaches--it made gobs of money. Lucas can claim
> artistic motivations _now_ all he wants. I know the lessons he soaked
> up there, and know he never shunned them.
Well, the person supposedly talking didn't say or imply that _he_ had
ever been to the school. He only made an off-the-cuff remark that
Kurosawa was someone whom anyone outside the USC film school had never
heard of.
However, I have little doubt that the conversation is, at the very
least, inaccurate. After all these years, the chances that the
conversation was even close to that are pretty slim. I don't doubt,
however, that it describes a general attitude that you would find at
that time at a cocktail party with a bunch of producers, directors, and
film executives.
--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23995
From: Filksinger
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 13:43:03 -0700
Subject: Re: I'm Switching, Maybe You Should
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
William J. Keaton wrote:
> Filk,
>
> I have been using Firefox as a secondary browser, on a trial basis. So far,
> it has proven to be fairly robust, mostly compatible, but seems to be a
> little slower to load pages than IE.
You might go to this page (http://www.moox.ws/tech/mozilla/), and
download an optimized build designed to run faster with your CPU. I
don't necessarily _recommend_ this, however, as I know very little about
this person or his software enhancements, but essentially he appears to
have simply included support for instruction sets found on newer CPUs,
so that Mozilla will run faster if you have those CPUs. Given that the
oldest build (M1) is optimized for MMX, you can see that Mozilla is
designed to run on even quite old CPUs, at least back to the original
Pentiums
I would point out, though, that his builds almost certainly have recent
security holes unpatched, unless they are very new releases and he says
otherwise.
--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23996
From: Mitch Wagner"
Date: 29 Sep 2004 20:53:45 GMT
Subject: Re: Star Wars DVD Trilogy Review
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"debrule@dahoudek.com" <debrule@dahoudek.com> wrote in message
news:415afb7c.4194493312@NEWS.SFF.NET:
>
> I didn't read every word but was was struck by a wrongness in that
> part. Kurosawa was not an emphasis at USC Film School where Lucas--and
> I--went. I don't recall Kurosawa ever being mentioned, in fact. The
> producer of "Three's Company" was, however. Kurosawa is artsy, but
> he's not commercial. USC Cinema is completely and overtly commercial
> in its teachings--it's not an artsy film school. There's _art_, and
> the techniques of art, but the primary objective is practical
> commercialism. If you can't make money off it, why bother to make it?
> Lucas's "THX-1138", though spawned by a USC student film, is less a
> USC-type film than is "Star Wars" because "Star Wars" is the epitomy
> of what USC Cinema teaches--it made gobs of money. Lucas can claim
> artistic motivations _now_ all he wants. I know the lessons he soaked
> up there, and know he never shunned them.
>
The devil's advocate says: What's wrong with "Three's Company"? It's
good slapstick and bawdy humor. Now that John Ritter is dead, some
critics are saying he was a physical comedian up there with Keaton, and
Chaplin, able to take a pratfall with the best of 'em.
> Bringing in a strange bit of Heinlein Forum/Heinlein-related
> connection... That philosophy fits Heinlein's write-for-money
> assertions. Money is the sincerest form of flattery an artist can
> receive to compliment their work.
>
I think there's an artificial dichotomy between high art and commercial
art anyway. It's all just art.
I once commended an editor friend of mine for having the principle to
publish a certain sf writer whose work is rather difficult to read and
whom (I assumed) was inaccessible to most readers and therefore didn't
sell that well.
My editor friend responded that he hated to turn away a compliment, but
in fact (he said) this writer sold better than I thought. Moreover, he
had a loyal following with sufficient disposable income that his readers
could be counted on to buy books in expensive hardcover editions. The
guy was very profitable for the publishers--not Robert Jordan numbers,
to be sure, but the bean counters liked him as much as the editors, fans
and critics did.
Mitch Wagner
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23997
From: Bill Dauphin
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 18:18:30 -0400
Subject: Re: I'm Switching, Maybe You Should
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On 9/29/04 12:38 AM, in article 415a3c54.0@news.sff.net, "Filksinger"
<filksinger@earthling.net> wrote:
> OK, I'll admit it. Outlook Express and Internet Explorer have been, for
> some time, the email client and browser of choice for me....
>
> However, times change.
JOOC, is there a Windoze version of Apple's Safari web browser? I've been
using it under MacOS X v. 10.3, and I really like it. Its UI is very similar
to that of iTunes (which I know is available for Windoze).
-JovBill
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23998
From: Bill Dauphin
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 18:26:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Star Wars DVD Trilogy Review
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On 9/29/04 4:53 PM, in article 415b20d9.0@news.sff.net, "Mitch Wagner"
<mitch@wagmail.com> wrote:
> The devil's advocate says: What's wrong with "Three's Company"? It's
> good slapstick and bawdy humor. Now that John Ritter is dead, some
> critics are saying he was a physical comedian up there with Keaton, and
> Chaplin, able to take a pratfall with the best of 'em.
I dunno. I like Crass Commercial Entertainment as well as the next fellow,
and I'm not offended by a little judicious jiggle, either. AND I agree that
John Ritter was a very talented guy. But IMHO _Three's Company_ was never
anything but embarrassing, almost painfully bad, schlock.
YMMV, of course. ;^)
-JovBill
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23999
From: cdozo
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 20:15:32 -0500
Subject: Re: Space Ship One
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
There is a video of the flight at:
http://ktla.feedroom.com/iframeset.jsp?ord=469872
Carol
=========
William J. Keaton wrote:
> Scary, somewhat scary. SS1 has just landed. I'm sorry, but you can't tell me
> that that roll manuever on ascent was part of the flight profile. I'm off to
> work, but I'll be checking in for the analysis of today's flight.
>
> Scuttlebutt is that they may try again as early as Monday.
>
> WJaKe
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24000
From: William J. Keaton"
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 01:03:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Star Wars DVD Trilogy Review
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net> wrote
>
> Well, the person supposedly talking didn't say or imply that _he_ had
> ever been to the school. He only made an off-the-cuff remark that
> Kurosawa was someone whom anyone outside the USC film school had never
> heard of.
Hmmm, I've never been to USC Cinema, and I've heard of Kurosawa! I've even
seen a movie or two.
I've read that Kurosawa's "artsy" movies have been remade as very commercial
movies. Somebody must be watching his stuff, and considers it good enough to
rip off! <g>
WJaKe
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24001
From: Lorrita Morgan"
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 00:53:37 -0700
Subject: Re: Speaking of Gatherings...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net> wrote in message
news:414deb49.0@news.sff.net...
In that case, I'll settle for the Washington Stonehenge.
>
> --
> Filksinger
> AKA David Nasset, Sr.
> Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
Amen, brother.
And our Stonehenge is still standing tall and proud!
--
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
`rita
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24002
From: debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 17:00:42 GMT
Subject: Re: Star Wars DVD Trilogy Review
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
>I've read that Kurosawa's "artsy" movies have been remade as very commercial
>movies. Somebody must be watching his stuff, and considers it good enough to
>rip off! <g>
Oh, a lot of us admired Kurosawa's artistry. And I know Spielberg,
et. al. considered him an influence in style. Personally, I found
Kurosawa's films to be _almost_ good but they would suddenly fall off
at a critical point, and in the case of the "Seven Samuri" I found his
editing/camera choice on one critical scene to be bizarrely
ineffectual. That, actually, wasn't my point. My point was that Lucas
wasn't trained in that sort of thing--he was trained in commercial
film making and never shunned that lesson. He's always been a strong
supporter of USC Cinema (patron saint, would not be overstating it),
so did not reject that lesson of if-it-doesn't-make-money-why-bother.
Deb Houdek Rule
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.heinleinprize.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24003
From: debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 17:00:43 GMT
Subject: Re: Star Wars DVD Trilogy Review
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
>The devil's advocate says: What's wrong with "Three's Company"?
I met the man the day he sold that show into syndication--happiest
fellow you'd ever want to see. Something like two hundred million
(this was about 1984) going straight into his own pocket. He proved
the value of his product--his art--the forthright way.
Deb Houdek Rule
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.heinleinprize.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24004
From: debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 17:00:43 GMT
Subject: Re: Speaking of Gatherings...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
>And our Stonehenge is still standing tall and proud!
But I'm afraid somewhat unknown. What and where? Replica of
Englands?
Deb Houdek Rule
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.heinleinprize.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24005
From: Mitch Wagner"
Date: 30 Sep 2004 20:05:25 GMT
Subject: Re: Star Wars DVD Trilogy Review
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"William J. Keaton" <wjake@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:415b92d0.0@news.sff.net:
> I've read that Kurosawa's "artsy" movies have been remade as very
> commercial
> movies. Somebody must be watching his stuff, and considers it good enough
> to
> rip off! <g>
Yup.
Kurosawa was strongly influenced by early American Westerns. He moved
the setting to medieval Japan, and changed the gunslingers to samurai.
One of the resulting films was "The Seven Samurai," which was then
re-made in America, as a Western, "The Magnificent Seven," which was
indeed very commercial.
He also did a movie called, I think, "Ran," about a lone samurai who
triumphs over two rival feudal Japanese lords by turning them against
each other. Later, Clint Eastwood used the same storyline in one of his
spaghetti westerns. Bruce Willis used it still later, and I'm told there
was a gangsta movie made with the same premise.
The premise itself goes back to Dashiell Hammett, in his novel "Red
Harvest," I don't know if Kurosawa was consciously basing his movie on
the Hammett novel. It's such a basic sort of story that I'm surprised it
took until the 20th Century for someone to think of it.
Mitch Wagner
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24006
From: Mitch Wagner"
Date: 30 Sep 2004 20:06:58 GMT
Subject: Re: Star Wars DVD Trilogy Review
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
I question whether we should say Kurosawa isn't commercial. I suspect
he's made a boatload of money.
Mitch Wagner
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24007
From: Filksinger
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 15:13:14 -0700
Subject: Re: Speaking of Gatherings...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Deb Houdek Rule wrote:
>>And our Stonehenge is still standing tall and proud!
>
>
> But I'm afraid somewhat unknown. What and where? Replica of
> Englands?
Yup. A full-sized reconstruction placed above the Columbia River Gorge,
built as a monument to soldiers in WWI. Unfortunately, it wasn't
adjusted for latitude. As a result, it is approximately 3 minutes off it
it's astronomical predictions.
It is not far from the Maryhill Museum, a beautiful mansion made for one
Mary Hill by her husband, and who died before she ever saw it. Her
husband refused to live in the mansion, and turned it into a museum. It
contains one of the finest collections of Rodin art in the world, as
well as a wide variety of other exhibits. It is also near Goldendale,
where one can find the Goldendale observatory, which has tours and let
my class play with a Van de Graff generator and Tesla coil when I was a
kid.:)
There isn't much on the web about the replica, but that isn't
surprising, as what can you say about a full-sized copy of Stonehenge?
For Columbia River Gorge area attractions, you can try
http://www.gorgeexplorer.com/.
You can find out about the Maryhill Museum by going to
www.maryhillmuseum.org.
--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24008
From: William J. Keaton"
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 16:44:22 -0400
Subject: From the SF Cinema column in Chronicle
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
It's the Revolutionary War in space as thirteen planetary colonies revolt
against Earth in the epic '2176'. Screenplay is by Thunder Levin and George
Saunders for producer Ron Shussett (Alien).
Mining Heinlein again?
WJaKe
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24009
From: Robert Slater"
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 16:06:28 -0700
Subject: Re: Star Wars DVD Trilogy Review
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Mitch,
Actually, Ran is an adaptation (Switched some genders) of Shakespeare's King
Lear. So it definitely hade been done before.
SIFI Rob
"Mitch Wagner" <mitch@wagmail.com> wrote in message
news:415c6705.0@news.sff.net...
> "William J. Keaton" <wjake@prodigy.net> wrote in message
> news:415b92d0.0@news.sff.net:
>> I've read that Kurosawa's "artsy" movies have been remade as very
>> commercial
>> movies. Somebody must be watching his stuff, and considers it good enough
>> to
>> rip off! <g>
>
> Yup.
>
> Kurosawa was strongly influenced by early American Westerns. He moved
> the setting to medieval Japan, and changed the gunslingers to samurai.
> One of the resulting films was "The Seven Samurai," which was then
> re-made in America, as a Western, "The Magnificent Seven," which was
> indeed very commercial.
>
> He also did a movie called, I think, "Ran," about a lone samurai who
> triumphs over two rival feudal Japanese lords by turning them against
> each other. Later, Clint Eastwood used the same storyline in one of his
> spaghetti westerns. Bruce Willis used it still later, and I'm told there
> was a gangsta movie made with the same premise.
>
> The premise itself goes back to Dashiell Hammett, in his novel "Red
> Harvest," I don't know if Kurosawa was consciously basing his movie on
> the Hammett novel. It's such a basic sort of story that I'm surprised it
> took until the 20th Century for someone to think of it.
>
> Mitch Wagner
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24010
From: Mitch Wagner"
Date: 1 Oct 2004 23:28:21 GMT
Subject: Re: Star Wars DVD Trilogy Review
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Robert Slater" <rslater215@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:415de2f4.0@news.sff.net:
> Mitch,
> Actually, Ran is an adaptation (Switched some genders) of Shakespeare's
> King
> Lear. So it definitely hade been done before.
> SIFI Rob
I'm thinking of another one, then.
Let's go to the IMDB.
The Bruce Willis version was "Last Man Standing"; Kurosawa gets a story
credit on that one.
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000041/
Ah! The Kurosawa movie I was thinking of was Yojimbo!
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0055630/
Here's the plot summary:
"A crafty ronin comes to a town divided by two criminal gangs and
decides to play them against each other to free the town."
And here's the plot summary of the Bruce Willis version:
"A drifting gunslinger-for-hire finds himself in the middle of an
ongoing war between the Irish and Italian mafia in a Prohibition era
ghost town."
Bruce Willis's character is really more of a hit man or enforcer than a
gunslinger. The story is set in a cowboy town, but the characters are
straight out of 1920s gangster movies. They wear fedoras and suits, not
cowboy hats and boots.
ObHeinlein:
- I don't think Heinlein could have written a take on the "Yojimbo"/"Red
Harvest" story. For all his talk about being a hack who wrote for money,
Heinlein liked his stories to be about good guys and bad guys. Not a
bunch of existential antiheroes, one of whom is sympathetic but is by no
means good.
- Kurosawa also did a movie called "Kagemusha" (often released in the
U.S. as "The Shadow Warrior") about a petty thief who's called on to
double for a powerful warlord. Sound somewhat familiar?
Mitch Wagner
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24011
From: debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 05:21:41 GMT
Subject: Heinlein and Existentialism
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
>Heinlein liked his stories to be about good guys and bad guys. Not a
>bunch of existential antiheroes, one of whom is sympathetic but is by no
>means good.
"Friday" leapt immediately to mind--her entire quest revolved around
the question of her own existence. The dictionary definition of
existentialism seems to fit "Friday"--and many other Heinlein
characters to a T:
"A philosophy that emphasizes the uniqueness and isolation of the
individual experience in a hostile or indifferent universe, regards
human existence as unexplainable, and stresses freedom of choice and
responsibility for the consequences of one's acts."
Sounds like Heinlein's characters and themes.
Fits Lazarus Long more than a little bit, too. And I don't see
Heinlein's characters purely as good/evil--in particular the strong
lead characters like Lazarus who decidedly has more than a moderate
streak of wicked in him, and isn't particularly a sympathetic
character. I _admire_ the character, but I can't say I really _like_
him.
Oh! How about that? A real Heinlein on-topic discussion?!
Deb Houdek Rule
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.heinleinprize.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24012
From: Lorrita Morgan"
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 00:23:43 -0700
Subject: Re: WA State Stonehenge(was Speaking of Gatherings...)
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
WA's Stonehenge is a WWI memorial built as a replica of the original is
supposed to have looked when it was whole. It's located on the WA/OR on SR
14 between I-82 and US 97, overlooking the mighty Columbia.
Here are a couple sites:
http://fusionanomaly.net/maryhillwashington.html
http://www.roadsideamerica.com/set/OVERhenges.html
http://www.irishgenealogy.com/us/wa/sam-hill.htm
--
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
`rita
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
"Deb Houdek Rule" <debrule@dahoudek.com> wrote in message
news:415f3b93.4276436430@NEWS.SFF.NET...
>
> >And our Stonehenge is still standing tall and proud!
>
> But I'm afraid somewhat unknown. What and where? Replica of
> Englands?
>
>
> Deb Houdek Rule
> http://www.dahoudek.com
> http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
> http://www.heinleinsociety.org
> http://www.heinleinprize.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24013
From: Lorrita Morgan"
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 00:33:45 -0700
Subject: Re: WA State Stonehenge(was Speaking of Gatherings...)
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
after I sent the links I checked this one's included links:
http://www.irishgenealogy.com/us/wa/sam-hill.htm
each click sent me to Yahoo's front page, But cut and paste me where the
description said that link would go. The first two have pictures also.
--
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
`rita
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24014
From: debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 16:17:40 GMT
Subject: Re: WA State Stonehenge(was Speaking of Gatherings...)
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
>http://fusionanomaly.net/maryhillwashington.html
That is a stunning shot with the mountain in the background.
Deb Houdek Rule
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.heinleinprize.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24015
From: Charles Graft
Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 14:56:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Paperless Voting Illegal in California
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Filksinger--
I saw an article on this. In my original project planning I
rejected paper because I thought the recording system I used (and
patented!) was considerably more secure that other systems then in use
.. All of my hardware, software (including operating system, which was
very simplified), and recording system was (deliberately) NOT compatible
with anybody else's, though based on PC components. A delight for a
designer.
Adding a printer to the system would be a simple enough exercise; I
could probably program it in less than a day. (I already have an
on-screen summary.) I avoided it in the original design because I did
not want to have a voter being pressured to show how (s)he voted to
anybody. Printing and leaving them at the polling place would be a
legitimate backup, but my feeling on this is that it is far more open to
fraud that the electronic recording.
Many of the electronic systems are, frankly, junk. And far more
vulnerable to abuse than they should be.
But at least the systems are now getting the attention they should
have had for years. I saw an estimate that as much as 15% of ballots
are fraudulent -- thousands of persons voting both in Florida and their
home state -- also areas that have more registered voters than adult
population -- mail in registration followed by mail in absentee ballots.
--
<<Big Charlie>>
"Seen on the door to a light-wave lab: 'Do not look into laser with
remaining good eye.'"
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24016
From: Filksinger
Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 14:21:07 -0700
Subject: Re: WA State Stonehenge(was Speaking of Gatherings...)
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
For anyone who wants to use those links, click on the link, then find
the _second_ http:// in the link, and delete everything ahead of it.
Lorrita Morgan wrote:
> after I sent the links I checked this one's included links:
> http://www.irishgenealogy.com/us/wa/sam-hill.htm
>
> each click sent me to Yahoo's front page, But cut and paste me where the
> description said that link would go. The first two have pictures also.
>
--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24017
From: Filksinger
Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 17:43:42 -0700
Subject: Re: Paperless Voting Illegal in California
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Charles Graft wrote:
> Filksinger--
> I saw an article on this. In my original project planning I
> rejected paper because I thought the recording system I used (and
> patented!) was considerably more secure that other systems then in use
> .. All of my hardware, software (including operating system, which was
> very simplified), and recording system was (deliberately) NOT compatible
> with anybody else's, though based on PC components. A delight for a
> designer.
Much better than Diebold's, I can tell you that. To make matters worse,
Diebold had claimed that the flash memory in their machines would act in
place of a paper trail, to get the original purchases through, then
tried to fight allowing that to happen. Along with any number of other
improprieties.
> Adding a printer to the system would be a simple enough exercise; I
> could probably program it in less than a day. (I already have an
> on-screen summary.) I avoided it in the original design because I did
> not want to have a voter being pressured to show how (s)he voted to
> anybody. Printing and leaving them at the polling place would be a
> legitimate backup, but my feeling on this is that it is far more open to
> fraud that the electronic recording.
The problem with electronic systems is that it is impossible to
guarantee that what I type into the system is what is counted. Your
system is about 10 times better than the Diebold system, in that it
creates an on-site record in a non-erasable system. But there is no way
for a human being to ensure this has not happened _except_ by a paper
ballot, because the human being can _read_ the paper ballot.
Now, I agree, your system is a very good one, and may even be less open
to fraud than a paper system. But those qualities remain, even when
there is a paper backup. The system is just as incorruptible with the
paper ballots as without. But without the paper ballots there is no way
to prove that someone with, say, $10 million in funding from some major
Democratic supporter didn't manage to sabotage the system. And the
accusation, along with proof that it was possible, may be as bad as the
fact.
> Many of the electronic systems are, frankly, junk. And far more
> vulnerable to abuse than they should be.
Agreed. Even your system doesn't address that a lot of people,
especially the poor and elderly, are afraid of computers and use them
badly, even if they agreed to use them at all. A number of recent
studies suggest that a lot of voters are failing to vote entirely,
because they either find the touch screens hard to use or won't use them
at all.
> But at least the systems are now getting the attention they should
> have had for years. I saw an estimate that as much as 15% of ballots
> are fraudulent -- thousands of persons voting both in Florida and their
> home state -- also areas that have more registered voters than adult
> population -- mail in registration followed by mail in absentee ballots.
True. Unfortunately, most electronic systems won't prevent this.
Double-checking for duplicates is the only solution there.
--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24018
From: cdozo
Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2004 12:28:44 -0500
Subject: SpaceShipOne Wins $10 Million X-Prize with Launch
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
SpaceShipOne Wins $10 Million X-Prize with Launch
Mon Oct 4, 2004 12:32 PM ET
MOJAVE, Calif. (Reuters) - SpaceShipOne, the world's first privately
funded manned spacecraft, on Monday reached space for the second time in
less than a week to win a $10 million prize designed to spur commercial
space travel.
More at: http://tinyurl.com/5w4yz
aka: http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=6407522
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24019
From: cdozo
Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2004 13:11:43 -0500
Subject: New Challenge
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
From The New York Times article on SpaceShipOne:
Robert Bigelow, who heads an aerospace company in Nevada, has announced
a $50 million "Bigelow Prize" for launching a vehicle into orbit by the
end of the decade.
From: http://tinyurl.com/5w9mo
aka
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/04/technology/04CND-SPAC.html?pagewanted=2&hp
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24020
From: georule@civilwarstlouis.com
Date: 5 Oct 2004 04:31:36 GMT
Subject: Heinlein Prize Trust Congratulates SpaceShipOne
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
http://www.heinleinprize.com/news/pressreleasespaceshipone.htm
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24021
From: Charles Graft
Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 12:11:41 -0500
Subject: Re: Paperless Voting Illegal in California
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
>Agreed. Even your system doesn't address that a lot of people,
>especially the poor and elderly, are afraid of computers and use them
>badly, even if they agreed to use them at all. A number of recent
>studies suggest that a lot of voters are failing to vote entirely,
>because they either find the touch screens hard to use or won't use
them
>at all.
This was a major consideration in my design. I did my best to
avoid computer-like attributes and feel to the machines. No keyboard
(just a very few buttons); large simple graphics; etc. It was a worse
problem then that it is now; many more people are acclimated to
computers than were a decade ago.
>> But at least the systems are now getting the attention they
should
>> have had for years. I saw an estimate that as much as 15% of ballots
>> are fraudulent -- thousands of persons voting both in Florida and
their
>> home state -- also areas that have more registered voters than adult
>> population -- mail in registration followed by mail in absentee
ballots.
>True. Unfortunately, most electronic systems won't prevent this.
>Double-checking for duplicates is the only solution there.
Hart Election provides the entire package -- not just the precinct level
machines, but the entire registration package. My system provided for
signature capture; with the handwriting ID software that has hit the
market in the over a decade since I was designing mine, it could
identify 1) whether multiple votes in a county (or whatever entity
oversaw the system) were signed by the same person and 2) have a good
chance of identifying who it is.
See:
http://www.hartintercivic.com/solutions/election_solutions.html
We need to give as much attention given to registration and fraud rather
than is given to the machines.
--
<<Big Charlie>>
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In
practice, however, there is.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24022
From: cdozo
Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 16:04:06 -0500
Subject: Space Law Warning
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
The U. S. Government is trying to restrict space travel.
Check out http://www.theorator.com/bills108/hr3752.html
Included in this bill are things like:
`(4) The Secretary may issue a permit only for reusable
suborbital rockets that will be launched or reentered solely for--
`(A) research and development to test new design concepts,
new equipment, or new operating techniques;
`(B) showing compliance with requirements as part of the
process for obtaining a license under this chapter; or
`(C) crew training prior to obtaining a license for a
launch or reentry using the design of the rocket for which the permit
would be issued.
`(5) Permits issued under this subsection shall--
`(A) authorize an unlimited number of launches and
reentries for a particular suborbital rocket design for the uses
described in paragraph (4); and
`(B) specify the modifications that may be made to the
suborbital rocket without changing the design to an extent that would
invalidate the permit.
`(6) Permits shall not be transferable.
`(7) A permit may not be issued for, and a permit that has
already been issued shall cease to be valid for, a particular design for
a reusable suborbital rocket after a license has been issued for the
launch or reentry of a rocket of that design.
`(8) No person may operate a reusable suborbital rocket under a
permit for carrying any property or human being for compensation or hire.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24023
From: RPostelnek"
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 20:48:19 -0500
Subject: Re: Space Law Warning
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
This seems to have the House, did it pass the Senate?
Rosie
"cdozo" <cadozo@planet-save.com> wrote in message
news:4165af0d.0@news.sff.net...
> The U. S. Government is trying to restrict space travel.
>
> Check out http://www.theorator.com/bills108/hr3752.html
>
> Included in this bill are things like:
>
> `(4) The Secretary may issue a permit only for reusable
> suborbital rockets that will be launched or reentered solely for--
>
> `(A) research and development to test new design concepts,
> new equipment, or new operating techniques;
>
> `(B) showing compliance with requirements as part of the
> process for obtaining a license under this chapter; or
>
> `(C) crew training prior to obtaining a license for a
> launch or reentry using the design of the rocket for which the permit
> would be issued.
>
> `(5) Permits issued under this subsection shall--
>
> `(A) authorize an unlimited number of launches and
> reentries for a particular suborbital rocket design for the uses
> described in paragraph (4); and
>
> `(B) specify the modifications that may be made to the
> suborbital rocket without changing the design to an extent that would
> invalidate the permit.
>
> `(6) Permits shall not be transferable.
>
> `(7) A permit may not be issued for, and a permit that has
> already been issued shall cease to be valid for, a particular design for
> a reusable suborbital rocket after a license has been issued for the
> launch or reentry of a rocket of that design.
>
> `(8) No person may operate a reusable suborbital rocket under a
> permit for carrying any property or human being for compensation or hire.
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24024
From: Filksinger
Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 00:18:33 -0700
Subject: Re: Paperless Voting Illegal in California
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Charles Graft wrote:
> This was a major consideration in my design. I did my best to
> avoid computer-like attributes and feel to the machines. No keyboard
> (just a very few buttons); large simple graphics; etc. It was a worse
> problem then that it is now; many more people are acclimated to
> computers than were a decade ago.
Apparently there was more to your design than I originally realized. I'm
glad to see that as much of these problems are addressed as possible.
<snip>
> Hart Election provides the entire package -- not just the precinct level
> machines, but the entire registration package. My system provided for
> signature capture; with the handwriting ID software that has hit the
> market in the over a decade since I was designing mine, it could
> identify 1) whether multiple votes in a county (or whatever entity
> oversaw the system) were signed by the same person and 2) have a good
> chance of identifying who it is.
There is no doubt that it is a quality system, and enormously superior
to the Diebold system. I could design a better system than Diebold as an
afternoon project, scribbled on the backs of napkins. They make me
sympathetic to hackers who attack systems to warn people how bad the
systems are. I find myself almost hoping that Diebold's system crashes
and burns big time, just so that Diebold's voting system will never be
accepted in the field of voting machines again.
> See:
> http://www.hartintercivic.com/solutions/election_solutions.html
>
> We need to give as much attention given to registration and fraud rather
> than is given to the machines.
From looking over the site, I do see one thing I was wondering about.
You come in, are verified as being you, then given a number. You go into
the booth, put in the number, and vote. Do I have that right?
--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24025
From: Filksinger
Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 01:00:50 -0700
Subject: Re: Space Law Warning
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
IANAL, but, IMHO, you have misread the bill. The bill doesn't restrict
spaceflight, it promotes it.
This bill is to modify a previous law, Section 70101 of Title 49 of the
US Federal Code, which already covers putting things into orbit. This
law _expands_ the previous laws. The previous laws do not cover putting
people into space, only cargo. This bill adds crew and passengers to the
list of things you can get a license to put into space. Without this,
you can't have private space tourism in the US.
The particular clause which you mention doesn't prevent space travel at
all. Instead, it adds permits. Under the current system, there is no
license for putting people into space. So, to make up for this lack,
they have added such licenses.
However, unlike a rocket that only carries cargo, a manned vehicle needs
to be tested first. You can't license a vehicle to carry passengers to
space without testing it, and you can't test it without the license. So,
they added a permit that allows you to test vehicles without having to
get a license first.
cdozo wrote:
> The U. S. Government is trying to restrict space travel.
>
> Check out http://www.theorator.com/bills108/hr3752.html
--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24026
From: cdozo
Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 08:13:23 -0500
Subject: Re: Space Law Warning
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Filksinger,
I tried to find the whole law/bill, but all I could find is what I
posted. How do I find the rest. I believe you are right, I just need
pointers so I can post them in other news groups where people are
thinking it's an anti-space bill.
Thanks, Carol
=========
Filksinger wrote:
> IANAL, but, IMHO, you have misread the bill. The bill doesn't restrict
> spaceflight, it promotes it.
>
> This bill is to modify a previous law, Section 70101 of Title 49 of the
> US Federal Code, which already covers putting things into orbit. This
> law _expands_ the previous laws. The previous laws do not cover putting
> people into space, only cargo. This bill adds crew and passengers to the
> list of things you can get a license to put into space. Without this,
> you can't have private space tourism in the US.
>
> The particular clause which you mention doesn't prevent space travel at
> all. Instead, it adds permits. Under the current system, there is no
> license for putting people into space. So, to make up for this lack,
> they have added such licenses.
>
> However, unlike a rocket that only carries cargo, a manned vehicle needs
> to be tested first. You can't license a vehicle to carry passengers to
> space without testing it, and you can't test it without the license. So,
> they added a permit that allows you to test vehicles without having to
> get a license first.
>
> cdozo wrote:
>
>> The U. S. Government is trying to restrict space travel.
>>
>> Check out http://www.theorator.com/bills108/hr3752.html
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24027
From: David M. Silver"
Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 09:51:47 -0700
Subject: Re: Space Law Warning
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
In article <41669238.0@news.sff.net>,
cdozo <cadozo@planet-save.com> wrote:
> Filksinger,
>
> I tried to find the whole law/bill, but all I could find is what I
> posted. How do I find the rest. I believe you are right, I just need
> pointers so I can post them in other news groups where people are
> thinking it's an anti-space bill.
>
> Thanks, Carol
Type "49 USC 70101" (cited by David, below) into a search
machine, such as Google. Among the returns you should be able to
find that entire law. The previous laws depend on and presumably
implement space treaties we've entered into.
For one Google result for 49 USC 70101, itself, see:
http://assembler.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode49/usc_sup_01_4
9_10_IX.html
Part of a useful discussion, of how it currently works including
the efforts of XCOR and others to comply with the current
licensing requirements, starts here:
http://www.thespacereview.com/article/139/1
and continues:
http://www.thespacereview.com/article/139/2
> =========
>
> Filksinger wrote:
> > IANAL, but, IMHO, you have misread the bill. The bill doesn't restrict
> > spaceflight, it promotes it.
> >
> > This bill is to modify a previous law, Section 70101 of Title 49 of the
> > US Federal Code, which already covers putting things into orbit. This
> > law _expands_ the previous laws. The previous laws do not cover putting
> > people into space, only cargo. This bill adds crew and passengers to the
> > list of things you can get a license to put into space. Without this,
> > you can't have private space tourism in the US.
> >
> > The particular clause which you mention doesn't prevent space travel at
> > all. Instead, it adds permits. Under the current system, there is no
> > license for putting people into space. So, to make up for this lack,
> > they have added such licenses.
> >
> > However, unlike a rocket that only carries cargo, a manned vehicle needs
> > to be tested first. You can't license a vehicle to carry passengers to
> > space without testing it, and you can't test it without the license. So,
> > they added a permit that allows you to test vehicles without having to
> > get a license first.
> >
> > cdozo wrote:
> >
> >> The U. S. Government is trying to restrict space travel.
> >>
> >> Check out http://www.theorator.com/bills108/hr3752.html
> >
> >
--
David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, Lt.(jg), USN, R'td, 1907-88
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24028
From: Filksinger
Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 11:10:26 -0700
Subject: Re: Space Law Warning
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Well, you can find the document they are amending at
http://www.access.gpo.gov/uscode/title49/subtitleix_chapter701_.html.
I have to admit, though, that I didn't read the section of the code they
were amending this time. Knowing what the purpose of the bill was, I was
able to work most of that out from the language they were amending.
The bill specifies that these limits are placed upon the _new_ category,
"Experimental Permits", and that this new category is inserted into the
list of current categories (thereby being added to the list while
eliminating nothing). They also repeatedly _add_ the word "permits" to
sections that currently say only "licenses", and words like "human
spaceflight" are added to sections about currently legal things like
"microgravity research". This means that they are adding humans in
addition to cargo to the current licenses, and permits in addition to
licenses. The wording also specifically indicates what the permits are
for. Since the permits are clearly added to the text concerning
licenses, and do not replace any of the current licenses, the current
licenses stand _with the addition of allowing human spaceflight_, and a
special permit to test craft that are experimental and not yet ready for
licensing.
There were some other clues, not the least of which was that it was
passing by such a huge margin when so many congresscritters were chiming
in on the "pro-private space flights" side of the fence, and that the
space enthusiasts who were supporting the bill weren't screaming loud
enough to be heard echoing off the Rockies (or possibly even the Alps).
Remember that smart, big money people are involved in this, like Paul
Allen. Do you really think that Allen didn't have a lawyer review the
wording of that bill the moment it came out? In order for this bill to
be written to restrict space flight:
1. Congress would have had to agree almost to the man to pretend the
bill was for permitting manned space flights, then deliberately crafted
the bill to do the opposite and voted on it,
2. Dozens of businesses and millions of fans that are relying on this
bill, many of whom are lawyers and experienced business people, all
failed to notice that it is secretly crafted to prevent space flight,
including such savvy business people as Paul Allen, Sir Richard Branson,
_and_ their expensive lawyers.
3. It was crafted so cleverly that these lawyers and business people
never let out a peep, yet amateurs with no legal experience can spot the
clear restrictive wording in a simple, straightforward bill.
Don't worry. If I am somehow completely wrong, and they just rewrote
this bill to sabotage spaceflight, you will hear from Paul Allen and Co.
loud and strong by Monday, even if there is a conspiracy in Congress.
cdozo wrote:
> Filksinger,
>
> I tried to find the whole law/bill, but all I could find is what I
> posted. How do I find the rest. I believe you are right, I just need
> pointers so I can post them in other news groups where people are
> thinking it's an anti-space bill.
>
> Thanks, Carol
--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24029
From: Bill Dauphin
Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 23:30:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Space Law Warning
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On 10/8/04 2:10 PM, in article 4166d812.0@news.sff.net, "Filksinger"
<filksinger@earthling.net> wrote:
> Well, you can find the document they are amending at
> http://www.access.gpo.gov/uscode/title49/subtitleix_chapter701_.html.
Filk is right that the bill as originally passed by the House was intended
to *boost* commercial human spaceflight by providing a stable, predictable
regulatory framework, as you can see from the "Findings" section:
"SEC. 2. FINDINGS.
The Congress finds that--
(1) the goal of opening space to the American people and their private
commercial, scientific, and cultural enterprises should guide Federal space
investments, policies, and regulations;
(2) private industry has begun to develop commercial launch vehicles capable
of carrying human beings into space, and greater private investment in these
efforts will stimulate the Nation's commercial space transportation industry
as a whole;
(3) space transportation is inherently risky;
(4) a critical area of responsibility for the Office of the Associate
Administrator for Commercial Space Transportation is to regulate the
emerging commercial human space flight industry; and
(5) the public interest is served by creating a clear legal and regulatory
regime for commercial human space flight. "
Notwithstanding everyone's distrust of gummint, in this case (well, in many
cases, actually) government regulation is a Very Good Thing, because it
makes it easier to reassure investors, customers, insurers, etc., that what
you're proposing to do is *legal*. Though there was some quibbling among the
companies about the details, essentially everyone who's a fan of commercial
spaceflight was hoping this bill would pass.
Unfortunately (did you notice the tense of that last sentence?), at the last
minute "poison pill" language was inserted into the Senate version of the
bill. The new language would have... or *might* have, depending on who you
ask... forced suborbital operators to ensure the same level of safety for
crew and "spaceflight participants" (aka fully informed passengers who've
signed an 'informed consent' document) as for "the uninvolved public." This
is an unreachable standard, and last I heard, the bill had been withdrawn
for this session.
So, long story short: The bill *was* good, but it got ruined at the last
minute.
There's been extensive coverage of this in the space media (esp. space news
websites and blogs), but your best one-stop-shop for links is hobbyspace.com
(don't let the word "hobby" fool you; it's a great source for space news).
Look back through the archives for the last week or two, and you'll see
plenty of stuff about this subject.
-JovBill
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24030
From: William J. Keaton"
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 23:52:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Space Law Warning
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Ok, as near as I can figure out, here's what's happening.
The current law has no provisions for humans in space other than "crew" as
so defined in 70102.
So, they are inserting into the definitions the specification of "space
flight participant" along with vehicle and payload. As they are not crew,
per se, they are a special category of payload.
I've compared a few appropriate sections of the current law with the changes
being added, and it doesn't look bad. The language Carol cited appears to
apply only to the category of experimental licenses. (Which may be why SS1
carried payload simulating 2 passengers, not actual people)
My layman interpretation looks to be OK. And I don't think it would have
passed so overwhelmingly had it been seen as overly restrictive. Commercial
space is too big of a business for this to be supported so broadly.
WJaKe
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24031
From: William J. Keaton"
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 23:55:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Space Law Warning
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
and the Space Access Society approves:
"HR 3752 passed the House by a vote of 402-1. It is neither partisan nor
controversial. It is currently stuck in the Senate Commerce Committee
for no good reason anyone can tell us, and may well die there when the
108th Congress ends later this year. If that happens, all the hard work
and progress to date is wiped out, and it has to start all over again
next year. "
WJaKe
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24032
From: georule@civilwarstlouis.com
Date: 10 Oct 2004 20:33:40 GMT
Subject: Robert Heinlein Remembered
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
. . .by author L. Neil Smith, now at The Heinlein Society. . .
http://www.heinleinsociety.org/rahandme/lneilsmith.html
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24033
From: georule@civilwarstlouis.com
Date: 10 Oct 2004 20:35:15 GMT
Subject: Re: Space Law Warning
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
It is possible that the *really important* aspect of the X Prize will not
be the technology, but the prompt to deal with the legal & regulatory issues,
as this bill begins to do. NASA issuing "commercial astronaut" wings being
another. Lots of work still to be done, of course.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24034
From: Filksinger
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 14:41:01 -0700
Subject: X-Prize Branching Out
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
The X Prize was so successful that the X Prize Foundation is now
branching out into other fields of endeavor. In concert with the World
Technology Network, they are creating the WTN-X Prize to promote goals
in informatics, biology, nanotechnology, and others.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/space/20041008/sc_space/newxprizesetssightsonsciencetechnologyandsocialsolutions&e=3
--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24035
From: Filksinger
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 14:42:29 -0700
Subject: Re: X-Prize Branching Out
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
The link to their website at the bottom of the page is corrupted. Here
it is:
http://www.wtnxprize.org/.
Filksinger wrote:
> The X Prize was so successful that the X Prize Foundation is now
> branching out into other fields of endeavor. In concert with the World
> Technology Network, they are creating the WTN-X Prize to promote goals
> in informatics, biology, nanotechnology, and others.
>
> http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/space/20041008/sc_space/newxprizesetssightsonsciencetechnologyandsocialsolutions&e=3
>
--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24036
From: Filksinger
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 03:12:35 -0700
Subject: For a Little Break
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
For those people who want a break from the election, or at least some
humor out of it:
http://atomfilms.shockwave.com/content/this_land/frameset.html
http://atomfilms.shockwave.com/content/goodtobeindc/frameset.html
http://i.euniverse.com/funpages/cms_content/5809/presidential_horror_show.swf
--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24037
From: Filksinger
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 03:30:24 -0700
Subject: Oregon Commentaries on Laws
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
In Oregon, anybody who wants to can spend $500 and put in an "Argument
In Favor" of or "Argument in Opposition" to any measure on the upcoming
ballot. Measure 36 is a measure to change the Oregon State Constitution
to include a clause that only marriage between a man and a woman shall
be recognized. Here's _three_ Arguments in Favor by a man who clearly
has too much time on his hands (and $1500 to spend on a joke).
http://www.sos.state.or.us/elections/nov22004/guide/meas/m36_fav.html
--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24038
From: David M. Silver"
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 10:32:23 -0700
Subject: Re: Oregon Commentaries on Laws
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
In article <417249bc.0@news.sff.net>,
Filksinger <filksinger@earthling.net> wrote:
> In Oregon, anybody who wants to can spend $500 and put in an "Argument
> In Favor" of or "Argument in Opposition" to any measure on the upcoming
> ballot. Measure 36 is a measure to change the Oregon State Constitution
> to include a clause that only marriage between a man and a woman shall
> be recognized. Here's _three_ Arguments in Favor by a man who clearly
> has too much time on his hands (and $1500 to spend on a joke).
>
> http://www.sos.state.or.us/elections/nov22004/guide/meas/m36_fav.html
I love it. Could you find the statute that permits those
arguments for me, David? If I could get my state legislators to
introduce and get it passed down here, not only would it
introduce some good humor into the tearfully boring voting
pamphlets we receive here; but it would create new jobs and
stimulate the economy.
--
David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, Lt.(jg), USN, R'td, 1907-88
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24039
From: debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 21:09:46 GMT
Subject: Deb's Midlife Crisis
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Turned 45 this month. Already had an orange sports car, so...
http://www.dahoudek.com/pages/tattoo.htm
Deb Houdek Rule
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.heinleinprize.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24040
From: cdozo
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 16:13:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Deb's Midlife Crisis
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Cool!
Carol
============
Deb Houdek Rule wrote:
> Turned 45 this month. Already had an orange sports car, so...
>
> http://www.dahoudek.com/pages/tattoo.htm
>
>
> Deb Houdek Rule
> http://www.dahoudek.com
> http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
> http://www.heinleinsociety.org
> http://www.heinleinprize.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24041
From: JT
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 18:31:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Deb's Midlife Crisis
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 21:09:46 GMT, debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek
Rule) wrote:
>
> Turned 45 this month. Already had an orange sports car, so...
>
> http://www.dahoudek.com/pages/tattoo.htm
>
Well, the URL gave it away, and I'm not surprised at the artwork
either. ;)
As far as midlife crises, go, that's not a bad one. <VBG>
JT
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24042
From: JT
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 18:38:22 -0400
Subject: Heinlein Society News?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
If I'm not mistaken, there was a business meeting concurrent with
WorldCon, and there must have been something of note that went on?
I didn't assign a proxy this year, but I'm still an interested party
and haven't seen word one here or on the website about it.
Just sign me curious!
JT
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24043
From: les@vrolyk.org (Les Vrolyk)
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 01:01:18 GMT
Subject: Re: Deb's Midlife Crisis
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Very cool Deb! I'm definitely jealous about the orange sports car.
Can't wait to hit 45...
Les
On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 21:09:46 GMT, debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek
Rule) wrote:
>
> Turned 45 this month. Already had an orange sports car, so...
>
> http://www.dahoudek.com/pages/tattoo.htm
>
>
>Deb Houdek Rule
>http://www.dahoudek.com
>http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
>http://www.heinleinsociety.org
>http://www.heinleinprize.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24044
From: Charles Graft
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 01:06:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Paperless Voting Illegal in California
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Filksinger wrote:
> From looking over the site, I do see one thing I was wondering about.
> You come in, are verified as being you, then given a number. You go into
> the booth, put in the number, and vote. Do I have that right?
>
> --
> Filksinger
> AKA David Nasset, Sr.
> Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
Filksinger--
Close. You are identified by the (using Indiana titles) precinct judge,
and the party sheriffs. You are then directed to the booth (or the table as
the case may be) and the poll worker activates the machine
as you enter. Then you close the curtain or press "start". (A moving
curtain with start and stop switches is optional. If not chosen, there are
"start" and "done" buttons on the voter panel.)
When you complete your selections, they are displayed at one time on the
monitor. (If you have a really big ballet, it may take more than one
screen.) You can then revise then until you heart is content. When you open
the curtain (or press "done").
Other buttons on the voter's panel are "next" (physically much larger
than any others) "back" and "clear". There are eight buttons alongside the
display to choose candidates. That's it.
--
<<Big Charlie>>
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice,
however, there is.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24045
From: debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 08:28:00 GMT
Subject: Re: Oregon Commentaries on Laws
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
>be recognized. Here's _three_ Arguments in Favor by a man who clearly
>has too much time on his hands (and $1500 to spend on a joke).
I don't think those first three were a joke. I think he just spent
his money more wisely than if he'd put his arguments on the opposition
side. Oh, and he has a 4th one further down.
Some of the others had some pretty funny bits, too, though probably
not intentionally. My favorite was "Marriage has always been a unique
relationship between one man and one woman." I must have read a
different planet's history.
Deb Houdek Rule
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.heinleinprize.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24046
From: Filksinger
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 13:42:14 -0700
Subject: Re: Oregon Commentaries on Laws
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Deb Houdek Rule wrote:
>>be recognized. Here's _three_ Arguments in Favor by a man who clearly
>>has too much time on his hands (and $1500 to spend on a joke).
>
>
> I don't think those first three were a joke. I think he just spent
> his money more wisely than if he'd put his arguments on the opposition
> side. Oh, and he has a 4th one further down.
True.
--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24047
From: Filksinger
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 14:01:29 -0700
Subject: Re: Paperless Voting Illegal in California
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Charles Graft wrote:
> Filksinger--
>
> Close. You are identified by the (using Indiana titles) precinct judge,
> and the party sheriffs. You are then directed to the booth (or the table as
> the case may be) and the poll worker activates the machine
> as you enter.
Good. From reading the website, I was given the impression that I would
walk up to someone and they would give me a number and direct me to a
booth, where I would enter the number to activate the machine. The
potential for abuse should be obvious, in voting districts (such as
every one I have voted in) where you identify yourself to the same
person who gives you your ballot.
> Then you close the curtain or press "start". (A moving
> curtain with start and stop switches is optional. If not chosen, there are
> "start" and "done" buttons on the voter panel.)
>
> When you complete your selections, they are displayed at one time on the
> monitor. (If you have a really big ballet, it may take more than one
> screen.) You can then revise then until you heart is content. When you open
> the curtain (or press "done").
>
> Other buttons on the voter's panel are "next" (physically much larger
> than any others) "back" and "clear". There are eight buttons alongside the
> display to choose candidates. That's it.
I see a possible problem. A person enters a booth, and closes the
curtain, activating the booth. They have a problem and need help with
the machine. They open the curtain to get help, and their vote is
registered.
There needs to be an escape button, a way for the person inside to let
people know that they need help that is A) Extraordinarily obvious,
since it is being used by people who need help, B) clearly does _not_
register the vote, and and C) informs the people watching the voting
booths that no vote has been registered, so that they can both warn
people who are still confused and think they are done, and so they can
tell the people who have irrevocably finished voting and are confused
from the people who haven't finished and are confused.
I can, of course, see ways to deliberately abuse this system, too, but
they are reasonably difficult. Such methods will always exist, and can
never be completely avoided. For instance, the people who identify you
could flag when you arrived, and watch as you enter a booth, flagging
that as well (if they assigned the booth, that's even easier). If the
booths were compromised, they could then tell how you voted because they
know that you used booth C at location 441 at 3:22 PM.
But, as I said, there will always be potential abuses. That one just
happens to be somewhat easier with electronic ballots than physical ones.
--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24048
From: Filksinger
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 17:56:07 -0700
Subject: Door Into Summer, A Bit Late
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
The UN has done a study that says that robot use worldwide should
increase 7 times in the next 3 years. Even now, you can get "affordable"
robot sweepers, lawn mowers, and vacuum cleaners.
http://start.earthlink.net/newsarticle?cat=2&aid=D85RTNNO1_story
--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24049
From: RPostelnek"
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 22:21:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Door Into Summer, A Bit Late
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
I want a Flexable Frank to clean the house.
Rosie
"Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net> wrote in message
news:41785aa8.0@news.sff.net...
> The UN has done a study that says that robot use worldwide should
> increase 7 times in the next 3 years. Even now, you can get "affordable"
> robot sweepers, lawn mowers, and vacuum cleaners.
>
> http://start.earthlink.net/newsarticle?cat=2&aid=D85RTNNO1_story
> --
> Filksinger
> AKA David Nasset, Sr.
> Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24050
From: RPostelnek"
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 22:23:29 -0500
Subject: Glory Road
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
We just got a hardback copy of Glory Road in at the library. Someone, I
will have to check who has put out a new hardback edition.
Rosie
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24051
From: Filksinger
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 21:49:08 -0700
Subject: Get It While It's Hot!
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Qwik-Fix Pro is currently available to home users from PivX for free
until October 31st. For those of you who didn't take my suggestion and
switch to Firefox, I strongly recommend installing this software. It is
a program that runs upon startup and shields Internet Explorer and
Outlook Express.
Typically, vulnerability management is done with patches, something like
this:
1. Someone announces a flaw in X component to Internet Explorer.
2. Microsoft starts writing a patch to repair the software (a slow process).
3. Microsoft releases a patch (which could bollix up your system if it
is installed).
4. People start upgrading. This is slow, because people either don't
know to do it, or are quite properly afraid that the patch might be
damaging and/or irreversible.
5. Long before most of them have updated, a virus is released that takes
advantage of the vulnerability, wreaking havoc across the Internet.
6. Antivirus companies release an update to their software after
thousands, perhaps millions, of machines are infected.
7. A new variant of the virus using the same flaw is released. Return to
step 5.
PivX instead does something simpler. When they receive notification of a
new flaw, they write code _blocking_ activation of the flaw, rather than
repairing it. This is like responding to the lack of flu vaccine by
wearing a mask.
Blocking a flaw is far simpler than actually repairing a flaw, and much
more reversible. It is also far more encompassing than writing an
updated virus definition which stops the virus, but allows other viruses
to exploit the same flaw, sometimes by copying the flaw exploitation
code right out of the original virus.
This block is installed on their clients' machines immediately and
automatically. Since it is simpler and less invasive than a patch, there
is little chance of anything going wrong. If there are problems, you
uncheck the offending feature and reboot (at most), and the problem is
gone. For the same reasons, the problems are easier and faster to correct.
In the meantime, Microsoft hasn't finished its patch, and may not even
have started it.
--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24052
From: cdozo
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 11:47:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Get It While It's Hot!
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Will it work for Windows 98 SE? I'm running
Firefox, but some pages require Netscape or IE.
Thanks for the tip, Carol
=====
Filksinger wrote:
> Qwik-Fix Pro is currently available to home users from PivX for free
> until October 31st. For those of you who didn't take my suggestion and
> switch to Firefox, I strongly recommend installing this software. It is
> a program that runs upon startup and shields Internet Explorer and
> Outlook Express.
>
> Typically, vulnerability management is done with patches, something like
> this:
>
> 1. Someone announces a flaw in X component to Internet Explorer.
>
> 2. Microsoft starts writing a patch to repair the software (a slow
> process).
>
> 3. Microsoft releases a patch (which could bollix up your system if it
> is installed).
>
> 4. People start upgrading. This is slow, because people either don't
> know to do it, or are quite properly afraid that the patch might be
> damaging and/or irreversible.
>
> 5. Long before most of them have updated, a virus is released that takes
> advantage of the vulnerability, wreaking havoc across the Internet.
>
> 6. Antivirus companies release an update to their software after
> thousands, perhaps millions, of machines are infected.
>
> 7. A new variant of the virus using the same flaw is released. Return to
> step 5.
>
> PivX instead does something simpler. When they receive notification of a
> new flaw, they write code _blocking_ activation of the flaw, rather than
> repairing it. This is like responding to the lack of flu vaccine by
> wearing a mask.
>
> Blocking a flaw is far simpler than actually repairing a flaw, and much
> more reversible. It is also far more encompassing than writing an
> updated virus definition which stops the virus, but allows other viruses
> to exploit the same flaw, sometimes by copying the flaw exploitation
> code right out of the original virus.
>
> This block is installed on their clients' machines immediately and
> automatically. Since it is simpler and less invasive than a patch, there
> is little chance of anything going wrong. If there are problems, you
> uncheck the offending feature and reboot (at most), and the problem is
> gone. For the same reasons, the problems are easier and faster to correct.
>
> In the meantime, Microsoft hasn't finished its patch, and may not even
> have started it.
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24053
From: Filksinger
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 01:21:47 -0700
Subject: Re: Get It While It's Hot!
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
There are two varieties on their website, one for Win9x/ME, one for Win
NT/2K/XP.
cdozo wrote:
> Will it work for Windows 98 SE? I'm running Firefox, but some pages
> require Netscape or IE.
>
> Thanks for the tip, Carol
<snip>
--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24054
From: William J. Keaton"
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 19:16:52 -0400
Subject: A long chapter ends...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
In my online history.
I regret to announce that I will be leaving Prodigy as of the end of this
week.
Some of you will recall that this very forum goes all the way back to the
Prodigy Online service, back before there was any public perception of "The
Internet" as we now know it.
From those humble beginnings on the Arts BB, to the SF BB; from 1200 baud;
through the flip-flops of timed access and unlimited access and the various
versions of BBNM I have stuck with Prodigy as my primary connection to the
on-line world.
Oh sure, I dabbled with Delphi, was seduced by GEnie, went slumming in AOL,
but at the end of the day, it was always Prodigy I came home to.
From Prodigy Online, to Prodigy Internet, through the purchase by SBC/Yahoo
I have stuck with Prodigy through a half-dozen modems of various speeds and
finally a DSL connection.
Early this month SBC dropped the bomb on me: SBC would no longer provide DSL
service to my area. DSL contracts they inherited from Prodigy Internet were
not being renewed. I was given three choices:
Cancel my service completely.
Change to a DSL/Internet provider they suggest.
Stick with Prodigy as a dial-up customer.
The third option is the only one that would have allowed me to maintain my
Prodigy e-mail address, but I just can't go back to dial-up. So I have come
to the painful decision that I will have to sever a connection that goes
back to early 1991. As of the end of this week, my Prodigy DSL line will be
disconnected, my Prodigy e-mail address will go unanswered.
Ok, some of you folks may have changed online services many times over the
years, but I've been loyal to Prodigy for a long time. Forgive me if I wax
sentimental for a few moments before I announce the switch.
(wax wax wax)
Ok. I'll get over it.
I have a new deal with Verizon.net. They are offering the same speed at a
cheaper price, and they are throwing in a DSL modem/802.11g router/4-port
hub for nothing. How could I resist.
So I'll still be here, and I'll still be wjake, I'll just be @verizon.net
now. If I gave some of you a different e-mail address a week or two ago,
forget it. That service has turned out to be an incredible disaster. But
that's a story for another day.
So drink a virtual toast to Prodigy with me, as I bid them adieu.
WJaKe now @verizon.net
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24055
From: JT
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 20:28:42 -0400
Subject: music-tech question
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
I'm wondering if there's a freeware (preferable) or reasonably-priced
program that will let me convert my WMA files to MP3 without that
annoying step of writing to an audio CD. ;)
I've actually bought a few things online and protected WMA is just a
pain in the butt. I'm sure I'd say the same thing if I used iTunes.
A google search sure turns up a lot, but it's hard to know what
actually works well, with good codecs, etc.
Any opinions are appreciated.
JT
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24056
From: JT
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 20:32:31 -0400
Subject: Re: A long chapter ends...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 19:16:52 -0400, "William J. Keaton"
<wjake@prodigy.net> wrote:
>Ok. I'll get over it.
>
Hey, before you give your address out to the whole world, isn't it
time to buy galacticcitizen.com and set up there? You can still use
verizon, but think about it, REALLY never changing your domain again.
;)
I can point you to a reliable provider that costs about $25 a year for
linux-based services.
JT
P.S.-- That's really it for Plodigy, then. Sigh. It would be fun to
write an alternate-business-history where %P outspent AOL that first
year on advertising and became the leader.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24057
From: georule@civilwarstlouis.com
Date: 25 Oct 2004 03:24:08 GMT
Subject: Re: A long chapter ends...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
. . .misty, water-colored memories. . .
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24058
From: Robert Slater"
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 22:19:21 -0700
Subject: Re: A long chapter ends...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Jake,
A virual Dickel to you. As far as I know you're the last person I know
using Prodigy. Here's to the days of 1200 bps being fast and 640 pixels
being a lot. And of course to the days when the pop ads were at the bottom
and the were for products like the Suburu SUX. (At least that's what it
looked like to me.) ;-)
SIFI Rob
Formerly known as
48qkxl68@prodigy.com
"William J. Keaton" <wjake@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:417c37bd.0@news.sff.net...
> In my online history.
>
> I regret to announce that I will be leaving Prodigy as of the end of this
> week.
>
> Some of you will recall that this very forum goes all the way back to the
> Prodigy Online service, back before there was any public perception of
> "The
> Internet" as we now know it.
>
> From those humble beginnings on the Arts BB, to the SF BB; from 1200 baud;
> through the flip-flops of timed access and unlimited access and the
> various
> versions of BBNM I have stuck with Prodigy as my primary connection to the
> on-line world.
>
> Oh sure, I dabbled with Delphi, was seduced by GEnie, went slumming in
> AOL,
> but at the end of the day, it was always Prodigy I came home to.
>
> From Prodigy Online, to Prodigy Internet, through the purchase by
> SBC/Yahoo
> I have stuck with Prodigy through a half-dozen modems of various speeds
> and
> finally a DSL connection.
>
> Early this month SBC dropped the bomb on me: SBC would no longer provide
> DSL
> service to my area. DSL contracts they inherited from Prodigy Internet
> were
> not being renewed. I was given three choices:
> Cancel my service completely.
> Change to a DSL/Internet provider they suggest.
> Stick with Prodigy as a dial-up customer.
>
> The third option is the only one that would have allowed me to maintain my
> Prodigy e-mail address, but I just can't go back to dial-up. So I have
> come
> to the painful decision that I will have to sever a connection that goes
> back to early 1991. As of the end of this week, my Prodigy DSL line will
> be
> disconnected, my Prodigy e-mail address will go unanswered.
>
> Ok, some of you folks may have changed online services many times over the
> years, but I've been loyal to Prodigy for a long time. Forgive me if I wax
> sentimental for a few moments before I announce the switch.
>
> (wax wax wax)
>
> Ok. I'll get over it.
>
> I have a new deal with Verizon.net. They are offering the same speed at a
> cheaper price, and they are throwing in a DSL modem/802.11g router/4-port
> hub for nothing. How could I resist.
>
> So I'll still be here, and I'll still be wjake, I'll just be @verizon.net
> now. If I gave some of you a different e-mail address a week or two ago,
> forget it. That service has turned out to be an incredible disaster. But
> that's a story for another day.
>
> So drink a virtual toast to Prodigy with me, as I bid them adieu.
>
> WJaKe now @verizon.net
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24059
From: Eli Hestermann
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 05:13:28 -0400
Subject: Re: music-tech question
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
iTunes now converts WMA files. It's what I use.
--
Eli V. Hestermann
ehestermann@charter.net
"Vita brevis est, ars longa" - Seneca
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24060
From: JT
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 19:31:41 -0400
Subject: Re: music-tech question
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Mon, 25 Oct 2004 05:13:28 -0400, Eli Hestermann
<ehestermann@charter.net> wrote:
>iTunes now converts WMA files. It's what I use.
But to AAC files, right? I don't want to swap one for the other,
especially since my player isn't an iPod. ;)
JT
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24061
From: RPostelnek"
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 21:17:30 -0500
Subject: Re: A long chapter ends...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Hi SiFi Rob,
I'm still using it. Through all the changes, the up and the downs. I still
have a Prodigy email address.
Rosie
"Robert Slater" <rslater215@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:417c8cd5.0@news.sff.net...
> Jake,
> A virual Dickel to you. As far as I know you're the last person I know
> using Prodigy.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24062
From: Ed Johnson
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 22:44:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Glory Road
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Rosie:
I wonder how long before we can order the hardbound version on
Amazon dot com or BarnesandNoble? Perspiring minds want to know ;-)
Ed J
On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 22:23:29 -0500, "RPostelnek"
<rpostelnek@prodigy.net> wrote:
>We just got a hardback copy of Glory Road in at the library. Someone, I
>will have to check who has put out a new hardback edition.
>
>Rosie
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24063
From: Robert Slater"
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 22:39:00 -0700
Subject: Re: A long chapter ends...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Wow. Let us know when and if they turn the lights out.
SIFI
"RPostelnek" <rpostelnek@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:417db3c0.0@news.sff.net...
> Hi SiFi Rob,
>
> I'm still using it. Through all the changes, the up and the downs. I still
> have a Prodigy email address.
>
> Rosie
> "Robert Slater" <rslater215@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:417c8cd5.0@news.sff.net...
>> Jake,
>> A virual Dickel to you. As far as I know you're the last person I know
>> using Prodigy.
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24064
From: Lorrita Morgan"
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 09:31:36 -0700
Subject: Re: A long chapter ends...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
After spending a couple hours with Qwest/MSN tech support Saturday, I
mentioned that I missed Prodigy. I think even in its darkest most
frustrating days the old Prodigy was laid out "logically" (or is it
"illogically") enough for me to navigate without getting too lost. MSN sure
isn't and they change the names of things! (eg- download becomes synchonize)
I joined Prodigy at the rapid speed of 2400 baud and left at 56.6k when
SBC/Yahoo took over. I also dabbled with other providers, but until the
take over always returned to Prodigy. After SBC took over it just wasn't
Prodigy anymore.
I guess Rosie will have to turn out the lights.
--
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
`rita
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
"William J. Keaton" <wjake@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:417c37bd.0@news.sff.net...
> In my online history.
>
> I regret to announce that I will be leaving Prodigy as of the end of this
> week.
>
> Some of you will recall that this very forum goes all the way back to the
> Prodigy Online service, back before there was any public perception of
"The
> Internet" as we now know it.
>
> From those humble beginnings on the Arts BB, to the SF BB; from 1200 baud;
> through the flip-flops of timed access and unlimited access and the
various
> versions of BBNM I have stuck with Prodigy as my primary connection to the
> on-line world.
>
> Oh sure, I dabbled with Delphi, was seduced by GEnie, went slumming in
AOL,
> but at the end of the day, it was always Prodigy I came home to.
>
> From Prodigy Online, to Prodigy Internet, through the purchase by
SBC/Yahoo
> I have stuck with Prodigy through a half-dozen modems of various speeds
and
> finally a DSL connection.
>
> Early this month SBC dropped the bomb on me: SBC would no longer provide
DSL
> service to my area. DSL contracts they inherited from Prodigy Internet
were
> not being renewed. I was given three choices:
> Cancel my service completely.
> Change to a DSL/Internet provider they suggest.
> Stick with Prodigy as a dial-up customer.
>
> The third option is the only one that would have allowed me to maintain my
> Prodigy e-mail address, but I just can't go back to dial-up. So I have
come
> to the painful decision that I will have to sever a connection that goes
> back to early 1991. As of the end of this week, my Prodigy DSL line will
be
> disconnected, my Prodigy e-mail address will go unanswered.
>
> Ok, some of you folks may have changed online services many times over the
> years, but I've been loyal to Prodigy for a long time. Forgive me if I wax
> sentimental for a few moments before I announce the switch.
>
> (wax wax wax)
>
> Ok. I'll get over it.
>
> I have a new deal with Verizon.net. They are offering the same speed at a
> cheaper price, and they are throwing in a DSL modem/802.11g router/4-port
> hub for nothing. How could I resist.
>
> So I'll still be here, and I'll still be wjake, I'll just be @verizon.net
> now. If I gave some of you a different e-mail address a week or two ago,
> forget it. That service has turned out to be an incredible disaster. But
> that's a story for another day.
>
> So drink a virtual toast to Prodigy with me, as I bid them adieu.
>
> WJaKe now @verizon.net
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24065
From: William Keaton"
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 01:33:57 -0400
Subject: Re: music-tech question
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"JT" <JT@REM0VEsff.net> wrote in message
news:fvhon012cg40lcg10ilf7dmf9eo3t13ur6@4ax.com...
> I'm wondering if there's a freeware (preferable) or reasonably-priced
> program that will let me convert my WMA files to MP3 without that
> annoying step of writing to an audio CD. ;)
Well, I just went through the same thing recently, I got some of those free
downloads from Burger King (urp!) and they are in WMA Digital Rights
Management protected format.
I searched and searched and couldn't find anything that would deal with DRM
protected WMAs. But I have a CD-RW, so I just wrote to CD from Windows Media
Player 10, then ripped them back to MP3 with MusicMatch Jukebox.
I don't know of any other way to do it.
WJaKe
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24066
From: William Keaton"
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 01:35:40 -0400
Subject: Re: A long chapter ends...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"RPostelnek" <rpostelnek@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:417db3c0.0@news.sff.net...
> Hi SiFi Rob,
>
> I'm still using it. Through all the changes, the up and the downs. I still
> have a Prodigy email address.
>
Hi Rosie! Good for you. I would have stuck with Prodigy, if they had stuck
with me. But since they are dropping my DSL line, I had to go.
Good Luck!
WJaKe
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24067
From: JT
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 18:17:53 -0400
Subject: Re: music-tech question
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 01:33:57 -0400, "William Keaton"
<wjake@-9verizon.net> wrote:
>I searched and searched and couldn't find anything that would deal with DRM
>protected WMAs. But I have a CD-RW, so I just wrote to CD from Windows Media
>Player 10, then ripped them back to MP3 with MusicMatch Jukebox.
>
>I don't know of any other way to do it.
>
>WJaKe
I think if I were willing to pay for one of the ripper programs that
advertises it does it, then I'd be OK. I just don't want to do it
without some real word-of-mouth reviewing. I think Popular Science is
doing a review of digital music software next month, so I guess I'll
see what they have to say for ease-of-use.
I didn't think there was a difference between DRM WMAs and the regular
format as far as the codec/translation was concerned--I just figured
that the WMA files get a certificate crazy-glued to them.
This would be a great time for bytor tochime in, or even our resident
'softie that still reads here. (Hi JP!)
JT
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24068
From: Filksinger
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 12:36:02 -0700
Subject: RETRACTION: was Re: Get It While It's Hot!
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
According to the Lockergnome Newsletter, PC Magazine reported that this
software is free to home users until Oct. 31st. Apparently, however, the
_company_ didn't say this, and Lockergnome is now backpedaling frantically.
The company, OTOH, only said it was a free _download_. While they did
say that the software will not stop functioning, unless you pay for it
when December rolls around, you will stop getting updates.
I've also heard about problems with the functioning of IE when it is
installed, for some people. However, problems for some people is to be
expected, and are easily corrected by turning off the protection. I
would still recommend it to other people who didn't have problems, _if_
it was free. But it isn't.
Sorry about that, folks.
Filksinger wrote:
> Qwik-Fix Pro is currently available to home users from PivX for free
> until October 31st. For those of you who didn't take my suggestion and
> switch to Firefox, I strongly recommend installing this software. It is
> a program that runs upon startup and shields Internet Explorer and
> Outlook Express.
<snip>
--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24069
From: Filksinger
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 12:40:17 -0700
Subject: Wailing About the European Union
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Check this link, to a close-up of the cover of the European Union's
Eurostat Handbook 2004.
http://www.thisistrue.com/images/wales2.jpg
Notice anything odd about England? Yep, that's right. Wales was
completely removed from the left side of Great Britain, even though
Wales is a member of the EU.
Oops.
--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24070
From: Mitch Wagner"
Date: 30 Oct 2004 20:38:11 GMT
Subject: Re: Wailing About the European Union
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net> wrote in message
news:4183ee1b.0@news.sff.net:
> Check this link, to a close-up of the cover of the European Union's
> Eurostat Handbook 2004.
>
> http://www.thisistrue.com/images/wales2.jpg
>
> Notice anything odd about England? Yep, that's right. Wales was
> completely removed from the left side of Great Britain, even though
> Wales is a member of the EU.
>
> Oops.
Wales is kind of the New Jersey of Great Britain, isn't it?
Mitch Wagner
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24071
From: Mitch Wagner"
Date: 30 Oct 2004 20:40:32 GMT
Subject: Re: RETRACTION: was Re: Get It While It's Hot!
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net> wrote in message
news:4183ed1c.0@news.sff.net:
> According to the Lockergnome Newsletter, PC Magazine reported that this
> software is free to home users until Oct. 31st. Apparently, however, the
>
> _company_ didn't say this, and Lockergnome is now backpedaling
> frantically.
>
> The company, OTOH, only said it was a free _download_. While they did
> say that the software will not stop functioning, unless you pay for it
> when December rolls around, you will stop getting updates.
Cry me no tears for Qwik-Fix Pro right. When a company says that its
software is a "free download," when you have to pay for it in 30 days,
there's a technical business term for that. It's called "lying."
Shareware, or try-before-you-buy software, is an honorable business
model, with at least a 20-year history in the computer industry. If your
software is shareware, or try-before-you-buy, say so.
Mitch Wagner
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24072
From: Filksinger
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 16:34:07 -0700
Subject: Re: RETRACTION: was Re: Get It While It's Hot!
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Mitch Wagner wrote:
<snip>
> Cry me no tears for Qwik-Fix Pro right. When a company says that its
> software is a "free download," when you have to pay for it in 30 days,
> there's a technical business term for that. It's called "lying."
The website is clear about what kind of offer they are giving. They were
perfectly honest that they were offering an evaluation version, only
free to October 31st (now November 30th, I believe). They didn't do
anything wrong. I don't believe that they even referred to it as a "free
download", which is not dishonest when they are clearly saying what you
are and are not getting free.
However, I never read what they said about the evaluation, having gone
to the download page by indirect means. It was misreported by a PC
Magazine newsletter, picked up by Lockergnome newsletter from PC Mag,
picked up by me from Lockergnome, and I brought it here.
I read about the software, checked out some links on how it worked and
checked for spyware, and suggested downloading it. But, because I was
sent straight to the download from the newsletter, I never read the
links telling you _about_ the "free download".
So, blame me, Lockergnome, or PC Mag, but don't blame PixV.
--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24073
From: Mitch Wagner"
Date: 31 Oct 2004 00:00:43 GMT
Subject: Re: RETRACTION: was Re: Get It While It's Hot!
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net> wrote in message
news:418424ef.0@news.sff.net:
>
> So, blame me, Lockergnome, or PC Mag, but don't blame PixV.
>
Oh, okay, thanks for clearing that up.
I blame society.
Mitch Wagner
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24074
From: JT
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 20:05:05 -0500
Subject: Happy Halloween
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Okay, I'll get away with posting this late to tell you that it -was- a
Happy Halloween here. Any of you with a minute to spare that want to
see a couple of cute kids, check out my website at
w w w . tildens dot net .
I don't know where these kids get their encouragement. ;)
So how was it by you all? The two best costumes in the neighborhood
were "a kid being kidnapped by an alien" and a 'lightpole'--our
neighbor's kids was wrapped in tinfoil and cardboard and had a
battery-powered light rigged up on a pole over his head. It was goofy
and precious all at the same time.
JT
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24075
From: William Keaton"
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:30:50 -0500
Subject: VOTE!
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Why are you reading this? Go Vote!
WJaKe
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24076
From: David Wright Sr."
Date: 2 Nov 2004 16:08:03 GMT
Subject: Re: VOTE!
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"William Keaton" <wjake@-9verizon.net> wrote in news:4187a7f3.0
@news.sff.net:
> Why are you reading this? Go Vote!
>
> WJaKe
>
>
>
Been there, Done that. ;-)>
--
David Wright
If you haven't joined the Society, Why Not?
http://heinleinsociety.org/join.html
Keep Up with the Latest
http://www.heinleinsociety.org/updates.html
Benefit The Heinlein Society by ordering books thru
http://home.alltel.net/dwrighsr/heinlein-amazon.htm
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24077
From: cdozo
Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 13:13:35 -0600
Subject: Voting Machine
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
I just voted at Pillow
Elementary School in NW
Austin. There was less than a
five-minute wait. The poll
people said it has been that
way most of the day.
I thought I would vote using
the usual fill-in-the-bubble
ballot, but there was an
electronic voting machine
instead. Fortunately I had
played with the online
simulator last night. I'm glad
I did. The designers of the
machine tried to make it
intuitive, but a fair amount
of people needed assistance.
If you haven't voted yet, and
you want to try a virtual
voting machine, you can go to:
http://www.hartintercivic.com/flashdemo/eslatecontainer.html
It's pretty fun.
Carol
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24078
From: William Keaton"
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 01:23:35 -0500
Subject: Re: Voting Machine
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"cdozo" <cadozo@planet-save.com> wrote
>
> If you haven't voted yet, and
> you want to try a virtual
> voting machine, you can go to:
>
> http://www.hartintercivic.com/flashdemo/eslatecontainer.html
>
Yes, but it is way too complicated. Here in Virginia we have simple
touch-screen systems. Just push the section of screen that has your
candidates name in it. It lights up. Push next until it shows you a summary
screen, showing all your votes. push next. push VOTE. Done
Why do I need wheels and dials and multiple buttons?
Sheesh.
WJaKe
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24079
From: Filksinger
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 09:47:15 -0800
Subject: Windows XP User Settings
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Somehow, I've messed my machine up good. Now, all users except
Administrators have the same desktop settings, and they cannot be
changed. If you are admin, you can do as you wish, but if you lose your
admin privileges, you go right back to a very bland default desktop.
Any ideas?
--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24080
From: Dean White"
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 15:00:20 -0600
Subject: Re: Windows XP User Settings
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
I have a few questions first, is this XP/Pro or home and is it part of a
network, also can you log on with the user and get the default settings or
are they unable to log on?
Next make sure that the C:\Documents and Settings contains the valid user
directories and that they look ok. Next check the file security settings of
those user directories and make sure they match with the user.
If it's not those then I will try to think of some thing else to check.
--
www.DeanWhite.net
has contact information
"Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net> wrote in message
news:418919a4.0@news.sff.net...
> Somehow, I've messed my machine up good. Now, all users except
> Administrators have the same desktop settings, and they cannot be changed.
> If you are admin, you can do as you wish, but if you lose your admin
> privileges, you go right back to a very bland default desktop.
>
> Any ideas?
> --
> Filksinger
> AKA David Nasset, Sr.
> Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24081
From: JT
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 16:30:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Windows XP User Settings
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 09:47:15 -0800, Filksinger
<filksinger@earthling.net> wrote:
>Somehow, I've messed my machine up good. Now, all users except
>Administrators have the same desktop settings, and they cannot be
>changed. If you are admin, you can do as you wish, but if you lose your
>admin privileges, you go right back to a very bland default desktop.
>
>Any ideas?
It sounds like a "mandatory profile" is being enforced. If you're not
in a domain setting, then it could be that the "don't save settings at
exit" policy is being enforced somehow. Anyway, it could be something
like that, set/reset from gpedit.msc, under User
Configuration/Administrative Templates/Desktop .
Or maybe not, but it was the first thing I thought of.
JT
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24082
From: Filksinger
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 14:49:47 -0800
Subject: Re: Windows XP User Settings
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Dean White wrote:
> I have a few questions first, is this XP/Pro or home and is it part of a
> network, also can you log on with the user and get the default settings or
> are they unable to log on?
Doh!
WinXP Pro, home network, no domain, no other machine has similar
problems. My desktop was running with admin rights for a while (lots of
reasons probably not relevant). When I set my desktop with admin rights,
everything's fine. When I set my desktop as User or Power User, I find
myself using a desktop without most of the settings I use by default,
with a Win98 theme, rather than XP (gray taskbar, win98-style start
button, etc).
I cannot change the toolbar, screen saver, background, etc., even
temporarily. I can uncheck "Lock Taskbar", for example, but once the
menu is closed, it is rechecked. I do not recall using these settings
more than temporarily.
All non-admin users on machine can log on, but all have same background,
taskbar, screen saver, overall theme, etc. Set any of them to Admin, and
they get the default as it was when I set up the machine, or, in the
case of my desktop, the settings I set up when I was logged on as me
with admin rights.
> Next make sure that the C:\Documents and Settings contains the valid user
> directories and that they look ok. Next check the file security settings of
> those user directories and make sure they match with the user.
The David folder under "Documents and Settings" gives me (David), full
rights and ownership of the folder and all subfolders. I even reset
those settings to ensure it. No change.
> If it's not those then I will try to think of some thing else to check.
>
Thanks. While I am theoretically trained for all versions of Windows, my
experience prior to getting XP at home was pretty much all non-NT. I
understand permissions and ownership pretty well, as well as restricted
users and groups, etc., I'm still not what _I_ consider an expert.
--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24083
From: Filksinger
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 15:05:29 -0800
Subject: Re: Windows XP User Settings
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
JT wrote:
> It sounds like a "mandatory profile" is being enforced. If you're not
> in a domain setting, then it could be that the "don't save settings at
> exit" policy is being enforced somehow. Anyway, it could be something
> like that, set/reset from gpedit.msc, under User
> Configuration/Administrative Templates/Desktop .
Everything under User Configuration/Administrative Templates is set to
"Not Configured". What, if anything, should I do?
> Or maybe not, but it was the first thing I thought of.
Was one that didn't occur to me, or rather I had only a vague idea of
what to do about it. Thanks.
After checking all of those settings, I disabled both computer and user
configuration settings in Group Policy, under Action, Properties. So
far, no change.
One additional piece of information. Excel, which I used just earlier
today as myself with Admin rights suddenly, with only User rights, acted
as if I had never used it before, on the same desktop. Clue?
If I seem a bit out of it, chalk it up to diazepam and oxycodone.
--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24084
From: JT
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 18:08:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Windows XP User Settings
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 14:49:47 -0800, Filksinger
<filksinger@earthling.net> wrote:
>The David folder under "Documents and Settings" gives me (David), full
>rights and ownership of the folder and all subfolders. I even reset
>those settings to ensure it. No change.
>
I was going to suggest checking the permissions on ntuser.dat, but
this sounds like you've covered it already.
What were you doing just prior to the problems (installing software,
playing with local policies, etc.)?
JT
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24085
From: JT
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 18:11:03 -0500
Subject: Re: Windows XP User Settings
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 15:05:29 -0800, Filksinger
<filksinger@earthling.net> wrote:
>One additional piece of information. Excel, which I used just earlier
>today as myself with Admin rights suddenly, with only User rights, acted
>as if I had never used it before, on the same desktop. Clue?
>
>If I seem a bit out of it, chalk it up to diazepam and oxycodone.
When we've seen problems like this, usually we delete the user profile
and start from scratch, chalking it up to profile corruption.
However, since it's affecting everyone and not admins, it has to be
permissions on -something-, so deleting profiles is definitely
overkill. You might try creating a new user account, though, to see
if it has the same problems.
JT
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24086
From: Filksinger
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 21:09:02 -0800
Subject: Re: Windows XP User Settings
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
JT wrote:
> When we've seen problems like this, usually we delete the user profile
> and start from scratch, chalking it up to profile corruption.
> However, since it's affecting everyone and not admins, it has to be
> permissions on -something-, so deleting profiles is definitely
> overkill. You might try creating a new user account, though, to see
> if it has the same problems.
I will probably delete the user profiles and start from scratch. I have
established that new profiles don't have the problem. What caused the
problem here is anyone's guess. Among other things, any software in the
Startup folder or the HKEY Current User Run keys don't function, but are
accessible and can be run from _within_ the corrupt profiles.
As to what I might have done to cause it, I know of nothing that
_should_ have. As to what I was doing before it happened, I did a lot of
things while the only user on the machine, and my profile as Admin, for
several weeks before I encountered the problem, so it could be any of a
great many things I did while trying to study permissions, services,
groups, policies, and software covering these and a great many other
similar areas.
Since new users don't seem to be affected, I guess I'll just recreate
the desktops and try to copy everything over.
I have remembered the probable cause. This machine had been having
problems, so I reinstalled the OS about two months ago. The profiles and
all the data in them were lost, so I created new profiles and repointed
the new profiles to the old data. If I changed the profiles from admins
to users after that point, as the only user on this machine, I might
well have missed the corruption all this time.
But I could have sworn I checked this stuff at least a few times.
When I move the profile data over to the new profiles, any suggestions
on what I should or should not move, and stuff that simply cannot be
restored without rebuilding it from scratch?
--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24087
From: JT
Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 19:27:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Windows XP User Settings
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 21:09:02 -0800, Filksinger
<filksinger@earthling.net> wrote:
>When I move the profile data over to the new profiles, any suggestions
>on what I should or should not move, and stuff that simply cannot be
>restored without rebuilding it from scratch?
Here's a painless thing to try since you're starting over anyway. Use
the File & Settings Transfer Wizard to save everything (if you use
Office also run the Office Settings Transfer Wizard, too).
After you create the new profile, run the Wizard and see how things
look.
As far as what to save-- Favorites, My Documents, and check through
Application Data and Local Settings\Application Data for things like
Outlook Express mailboxes, .wab files or .pst files. Don't try and
plop them back in the new profiles but you should be able to reimport
most of the stuff back into the fresh profile.
FWIW I think the XP Wizard saves most of that stuff. There's probably
an MS KB article you can read up on, or maybe the help is adequate for
that function.
Make your life easier in troubleshooting and name the users a bit
differently, too. And write down what you called them, and what the
old ones were, so that 6 months from now you remember. ;) (Been there,
haven't done that, too.)
JT
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24088
From: debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 20:44:24 GMT
Subject: Re: A long chapter ends...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
>I regret to announce that I will be leaving Prodigy as of the end of this
>week.
I hadn't even known *P still existed. We left a few years back when
we first got DSL--they sounded so sad and sent us a bunch of Prodigy
stuff, like tote bags and a clock made out of a 5 1/4" disk.
Deb Houdek Rule
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.heinleinprize.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24089
From: debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 20:44:24 GMT
Subject: Re: Deb's Midlife Crisis
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
>Very cool Deb! I'm definitely jealous about the orange sports car.
>Can't wait to hit 45...
Hey, Les! "Can't wait to hit 45" is definitely a phrase one does not
hear often ;-)
The orange sports car is going away. My beautiful Firebird is up on
an Ebay auction right now. If you search '1972 Firebird' you can see
him. Someone bid this morning so it's all but a done deal except for
the 'who' and the final price. Hope they give him a good home
<sniffle>
Deb Houdek Rule
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.heinleinprize.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24090
From: debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 20:44:24 GMT
Subject: Re: Deb's Midlife Crisis
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
>Well, the URL gave it away, and I'm not surprised at the artwork
>either. ;)
Yup. Hits many themes, Norse Viking plus the hint of Heinleinness.
Deb Houdek Rule
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.heinleinprize.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24091
From: debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 20:44:24 GMT
Subject: Big Changes
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
After a year of turmoil, the turmoil is about to continue in an
enhanced way. If I haven't updated our tale here, in Feb I started
packing up and cleaning out our house to get it ready to sell (had
stuff enough to fill a 2600 square foot house in a 1300 square foot
house). Packed up over 3500 books, almost 200 boxes worth, and moved
excess into storage--filled a 10X20 storage locker about 8 feet deep.
Cleaning an repairing the house.
I think we listed the house in May (much of the year is a bit of
blur). Showed it for three weeks--had about two dozen people through
one day, 3 to 6 through most days. I hate house cleaning, especially
the fussy has-to-be-done-every-day-to-perfection cleaning. Bless my
little Roomba, though! I'd set it to vacuum the living room and dining
room while I cleaned up elsewhere (Roombas have my total endorsement).
Got our price on the house, which was supposed to close in July, but
the finals on the sale kept dragging out until August. We moved into
an apartment (pretty nice, love the pool and the exercise room).
Well, now, I gave notice at work and my last day was Nov 2 (election
night--very perverse of me to make the busiest, toughest tv night of
the year my last). Then I had jury duty the past two days (completely
fascinating and mind-numbingly dull all at the same time). That's all
settled and I'm packing up and moving to Minnesota (home!!!) around
Nov 15 (travel weather permitting). I'll get us settled in there and
Geo will be along around the end of January.
Whew!
Deb Houdek Rule
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.heinleinprize.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24092
From: William Keaton"
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 16:57:08 -0500
Subject: Re: Big Changes
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
>That's all
> settled and I'm packing up and moving to Minnesota (home!!!) around
> Nov 15 (travel weather permitting). I'll get us settled in there and
> Geo will be along around the end of January.
>
> Whew!
Wow.
Good luck!
WJaKe
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24093
From: William Keaton"
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 17:14:51 -0500
Subject: X Prize paid
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
They got the check today.
http://apnews.excite.com/article/20041106/D866KBIO0.html
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24094
From: Ed Johnson
Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 22:08:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Windows XP User Settings
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 15:05:29 -0800, Filksinger
<filksinger@earthling.net> wrote:
<major snip>
>
>If I seem a bit out of it, chalk it up to diazepam and oxycodone.
Filk: Those are serious pain-killers: I hope that you won't have
to be on them for very long and are "in recovery". I was on them
briefly following major surgery two years ago.
I may have missed the reason for these medications from an
earlier post: ? back injury?. I hope that you are getting better
from whatever it is that is causing the pain.
Ed J
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24095
From: Robert Slater"
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 23:03:43 -0800
Subject: Re: Big Changes
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Deb, (and GEO),
Uh, Wow! Good luck on relocating,
SIFI Rob
"Deb Houdek Rule" <debrule@dahoudek.com> wrote in message
news:41903503.1698253539@NEWS.SFF.NET...
>
> After a year of turmoil, the turmoil is about to continue in an
> enhanced way. If I haven't updated our tale here, in Feb I started
> packing up and cleaning out our house to get it ready to sell (had
> stuff enough to fill a 2600 square foot house in a 1300 square foot
> house). Packed up over 3500 books, almost 200 boxes worth, and moved
> excess into storage--filled a 10X20 storage locker about 8 feet deep.
> Cleaning an repairing the house.
>
> I think we listed the house in May (much of the year is a bit of
> blur). Showed it for three weeks--had about two dozen people through
> one day, 3 to 6 through most days. I hate house cleaning, especially
> the fussy has-to-be-done-every-day-to-perfection cleaning. Bless my
> little Roomba, though! I'd set it to vacuum the living room and dining
> room while I cleaned up elsewhere (Roombas have my total endorsement).
> Got our price on the house, which was supposed to close in July, but
> the finals on the sale kept dragging out until August. We moved into
> an apartment (pretty nice, love the pool and the exercise room).
>
> Well, now, I gave notice at work and my last day was Nov 2 (election
> night--very perverse of me to make the busiest, toughest tv night of
> the year my last). Then I had jury duty the past two days (completely
> fascinating and mind-numbingly dull all at the same time). That's all
> settled and I'm packing up and moving to Minnesota (home!!!) around
> Nov 15 (travel weather permitting). I'll get us settled in there and
> Geo will be along around the end of January.
>
> Whew!
>
>
> Deb Houdek Rule
> http://www.dahoudek.com
> http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
> http://www.heinleinsociety.org
> http://www.heinleinprize.com
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24096
From: Filksinger
Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 12:23:06 -0800
Subject: Filksinger's Health (was: Re: Windows XP User Settings)
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Apologies to everybody.
I have never been the most open about my private life, here or
elsewhere. Some time ago, when my old back injury started going beyond
just acting up, I told myself to let everyone know, then completely
forgot that I hadn't.
Many years ago, I injured my back working on a conveyor belt, sorting
recyclables from garbage (well before I became a computer tech). It was
originally diagnosed as a pulled muscle, but repeats of the problem,
plus some odd symptoms, over the years revealed that it was probably a
pinched or ruptured disk.
In early June, the pain returned. As usual, they did little for me
except give me cyclobenzaprine for muscle spasms, and ibuprofen for
pain. This doctor didn't even want to give me codeine, though I have
taken Percoset for it before.
By the end of June, I had lost my job (only vaguely related, if at all,
but looking for work is more than a bit difficult), but I thought I was
getting better. Then, for the first time, I started feeling numbness in
my legs. I also started feeling pain in my neck and, luckily, very mild
numbness in the rest of my body.
By early July, my legs were so numb I couldn't make ten steps without
leaning on a walker (or cane, but when one leg or the other would fold
suddenly, I'd just go right over). My wife has been using a heavy-duty
mobility scooter for a while now, so now we take turns, with me using a
heavy-duty wheeled walker with built-in seat when we have to go
somewhere together. It took me until mid-July to get x-rays, and until
early August to get MRIs. Oddly enough, at about this time, I stopped
feeling more than comparatively minor pain in my back and neck, except
occasional very painful exceptions.
Mid-August, I finally got to see an orthopedist, who sent me for more
MRIs, because of mis-communication between my first doctor and the
people doing the MRIs. MRIs, incidentally, are great fun when you a)
have claustrophobia, and b) weigh over 300 lbs. I had to put my arms
over my head the entire time just to fit in the machine, and the machine
was _very_ snug. (Recommendation: wear a mask, and pretend that you are
lying in a divot in a surface, like a narrow recliner with arms on both
sides, with nothing in front of your face at all. Also, don't even
twitch, or it takes longer.)
MRIs showed at least one ruptured disk in my neck, and three in my lower
back (one ruptured on both sides). The ones in the lower back, luckily,
put little pressure on the nerves of the spinal cord directly, but
instead put pressure on the sciatic nerves. This is shown by the fact
that I still mostly have bladder and bowel control, but numbness
starting around my hips, and a tenseness around my waist as if I was
wearing a wide belt two sizes too tight. Because the back was obviously
far worse, I had surgery on that first, October 26th. (The only back
_and_ neck specialist in the area covered by my insurance was very busy.)
Came home last Friday, and have been slowly recovering at home. I have
dropped the heavy-duty pain killers except as necessary either a)
because I must go somewhere, or b) can't sleep. I have always hated
those things with a passion, so often I'd rather take pain (Ibuprofen
helps with inflammation, but I've never noticed significant pain
reduction with anything short of codeine, for anything except muscle
spasms, for which cyclobenzaprine works). (For those who didn't
recognize the names oxycodone and diazepam, they are generics for
Percoset and Valium, the first for pain, the second for muscle spasms,
considerably stronger than codeine and cyclobenzaprine (Flexeril).)
My legs are still weak and somewhat numb (and show other signs of nerve
damage, such as characteristic leg tremblers), but better. My lower back
hurts a lot more than it mostly has since July, but doesn't hurt too
much so long as I don't move, and particularly do not use my arms to
help lift myself. Unfortunately, my legs are still well short of strong
enough to do the job on their own. I still walk like a question mark,
often take multiple tries to stand, and can't get three feet without
leaning on a walker, or a cane and walls and furniture (the heavy-duty
walker won't fit through most of the doors or even open doorways in my
house).
For the very latest snafu, I set up my follow-up appointment for Monday,
just after I got back, and as a result of drugs and pain cannot either
remember the time _and_ forgot to write it down. I hope it wasn't early
in the morning, as the time from my house to his office without detailed
pre-planning is about 2 hours.
Whee!
Ed Johnson wrote:
> On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 15:05:29 -0800, Filksinger
> <filksinger@earthling.net> wrote:
>
> <major snip>
>
>>If I seem a bit out of it, chalk it up to diazepam and oxycodone.
>
>
> Filk: Those are serious pain-killers: I hope that you won't have
> to be on them for very long and are "in recovery". I was on them
> briefly following major surgery two years ago.
> I may have missed the reason for these medications from an
> earlier post: ? back injury?. I hope that you are getting better
> from whatever it is that is causing the pain.
>
> Ed J
--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24097
From: Filksinger
Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 15:19:13 -0800
Subject: Re: Big Changes
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Good luck with the move. I hope everything turns out wonderfully for you.
Deb Houdek Rule wrote:
<snip>
> Whew!
--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24098
From: Charles Graft
Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 08:38:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Paperless Voting Illegal in California
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Filksinger wrote:
> I see a possible problem. A person enters a booth, and closes the
> curtain, activating the booth. They have a problem and need help with
> the machine. They open the curtain to get help, and their vote is
> registered.
> There needs to be an escape button, a way for the person inside to let
> people know that they need help that is A) Extraordinarily obvious,
> since it is being used by people who need help, B) clearly does _not_
> register the vote, and and C) informs the people watching the voting
> booths that no vote has been registered, so that they can both warn
> people who are still confused and think they are done, and so they can
> tell the people who have irrevocably finished voting and are confused
> from the people who haven't finished and are confused.
>
The same thing you do on the mechanical. You step out of the booth without opening
the curtain
(or hitting the "Done" button) to call for help.
>
> I can, of course, see ways to deliberately abuse this system, too, but
> they are reasonably difficult. Such methods will always exist, and can
> never be completely avoided. For instance, the people who identify you
> could flag when you arrived, and watch as you enter a booth, flagging
> that as well (if they assigned the booth, that's even easier). If the
> booths were compromised, they could then tell how you voted because they
> know that you used booth C at location 441 at 3:22 PM.
>
The votes are recorded in randomly chosen fields without a time stamp. I felt this
was necessary to maintain a secret ballot.
>
> But, as I said, there will always be potential abuses. That one just
> happens to be somewhat easier with electronic ballots than physical ones.
>
> --
> Filksinger
> AKA David Nasset, Sr.
> Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
I still think my system is superior to those on the market today. Several on
this forum have seen it demonstrated and input from several went into the project.
--
<<Big Charlie>>
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice,
however, there is.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24099
From: Charles Graft
Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 08:39:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Big Changes
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Deb--
Too bad you can't get your muscle car back. But at least you can
look for another one.
Patricia and I visited mall of america last spring. We might make
another trip in the next few months. Can we get together then?
Geo must have completely flipped. A Californian move to
Minnesota? In winter?
They do have Stuart Anderson steak houses there. As of last May.
--
<<Big Charlie>>
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In
practice, however, there is.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24100
From: Charles Graft
Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 08:41:37 -0500
Subject: Re: Voting Machine
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Carol--
Hart Intercivic is the company that owns my patent rights.
--
<<Big Charlie>>
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In
practice, however, there is.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24101
From: Charles Graft
Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 08:43:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Voting Machine
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
WJaKe--
This sounds very similar to my system. Who made it?
--
<<Big Charlie>>
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In
practice, however, there is.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24102
From: Charles Graft
Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 08:54:07 -0500
Subject: Medical report
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Hi, All--
Thought I would let you know I will be going into the hospital
Wednesday (Nov. 10th) for prostate removal. A routine high PSA
(Prostate Sensitive Antigen) blood test sent me to the urologist for a
biopsy which confirmed a small amount of cancer. I elected traditional
surgical removal, radiation treatment would be miserable and the things
would still be in there waiting for the next opportunity. Laproscopic
surgery would be less invasive, but a higher risk as I have had previous
abdominal surgery.
Three to five days in the hospital; about six weeks recovery.
I expect to have the laptop with me so will be able to answer
E-Mails.
--
<<Big Charlie>>
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In
practice, however, there is.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24103
From: cdozo
Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 08:26:48 -0600
Subject: Re: Medical report
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
BC,
I'll be sending good thoughts your way.
Carol
========
Charles Graft wrote:
> Hi, All--
> Thought I would let you know I will be going into the hospital
> Wednesday (Nov. 10th) for prostate removal. A routine high PSA
> (Prostate Sensitive Antigen) blood test sent me to the urologist for a
> biopsy which confirmed a small amount of cancer. I elected traditional
> surgical removal, radiation treatment would be miserable and the things
> would still be in there waiting for the next opportunity. Laproscopic
> surgery would be less invasive, but a higher risk as I have had previous
> abdominal surgery.
>
> Three to five days in the hospital; about six weeks recovery.
>
> I expect to have the laptop with me so will be able to answer
> E-Mails.
>
> --
> <<Big Charlie>>
>
> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In
> practice, however, there is.
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24104
From: JT
Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 18:57:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Filksinger's Health (was: Re: Windows XP User Settings)
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Sun, 07 Nov 2004 12:23:06 -0800, Filksinger
<filksinger@earthling.net> wrote:
>Apologies to everybody.
>
None needed. I know why they call it the "practice" of medicine. I
hope that healing proceeds. Please use us to vent if you feel the
need.
JT
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24105
From: JT
Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 18:58:18 -0500
Subject: Re: Medical report
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 08:54:07 -0500, Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com>
wrote:
>Hi, All--
> Thought I would let you know I will be going into the hospital
>Wednesday (Nov. 10th) for prostate removal.
Good thoughts and "Textbook" procedures for you, Charlie. Be a good
patient. ;)
JT
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24106
From: Ed Johnson
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 00:19:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Medical report
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Charlie: I will say a prayer for your complete recovery from this
very invasive, major surgery (been there, done that and got the
T-shirt <ng>).
I recommend that you plan for a couple of weeks without repeated
use of any stairs. By the time you read this you will probably be
out of the Hospital. I can only hope that your surgeon is as
skilled as was my doctor and that you are as fortunate as was I in
getting a good prognosis from the Pathologist.
Hang in there: they do many of these each year and seem to have
much success with Dr. Walsh's nerve-sparing technique.
Ed J
On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 08:54:07 -0500, Charles Graft
<chasgraft@aol.com> wrote:
>Hi, All--
> Thought I would let you know I will be going into the hospital
>Wednesday (Nov. 10th) for prostate removal. A routine high PSA
>(Prostate Sensitive Antigen) blood test sent me to the urologist for a
>biopsy which confirmed a small amount of cancer. I elected traditional
>surgical removal, radiation treatment would be miserable and the things
>would still be in there waiting for the next opportunity. Laproscopic
>surgery would be less invasive, but a higher risk as I have had previous
>abdominal surgery.
>
> Three to five days in the hospital; about six weeks recovery.
>
> I expect to have the laptop with me so will be able to answer
>E-Mails.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24107
From: William Keaton"
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 01:21:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Voting Machine
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Charles Graft" <chasgraft@aol.com> wrote in message
news:418F77E4.8B4B4D8B@aol.com...
> WJaKe--
> This sounds very similar to my system. Who made it?
>
It's the WinVote system.
http://www.co.fairfax.va.us/gov/eb/winvote_equip.htm
WJaKe
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24108
From: William Keaton"
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 01:30:53 -0500
Subject: Re: Medical report
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Charles Graft" <chasgraft@aol.com> wrote in message
news:418F7A7E.E39B8040@aol.com...
> Hi, All--
> Thought I would let you know I will be going into the hospital
> Wednesday (Nov. 10th) for prostate removal. A routine high PSA
> (Prostate Sensitive Antigen) blood test sent me to the urologist for a
> biopsy which confirmed a small amount of cancer.
Are you trying for partial removal, or full?
A few years ago my Dad had partial removal, I don't know if it was
laproscopic or not. He was home in a couple of days, and back riding his
bike in a few weeks. PSA levels dropped and have stayed in the fractional
numbers since then.
Hope your prognosis is good, and recovery goes well.
WJaKe
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24109
From: Charles Graft
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 15:42:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Medical report
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Bill--
I looked at laproscopic but was at high risk because of previous
surgery.
And thank to all for you good wishes.
--
<<Big Charlie>>
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In
practice, however, there is.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24110
From: RPostelnek"
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 22:54:49 -0600
Subject: Re: Medical report
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
BC
Will be sending good thoughts your way.
Rosie
"Charles Graft" <chasgraft@aol.com> wrote in message
news:418F7A7E.E39B8040@aol.com...
> Hi, All--
> Thought I would let you know I will be going into the hospital
> Wednesday (Nov. 10th) for prostate removal. A routine high PSA
> (Prostate Sensitive Antigen) blood test sent me to the urologist for a
> biopsy which confirmed a small amount of cancer. I elected traditional
> surgical removal, radiation treatment would be miserable and the things
> would still be in there waiting for the next opportunity. Laproscopic
> surgery would be less invasive, but a higher risk as I have had previous
> abdominal surgery.
>
> Three to five days in the hospital; about six weeks recovery.
>
> I expect to have the laptop with me so will be able to answer
> E-Mails.
>
> --
> <<Big Charlie>>
>
> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In
> practice, however, there is.
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24111
From: Eli Hestermann
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 05:07:25 -0500
Subject: Re: Medical report
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
BC-
My thoughts and prayers will be with you.
Sorry laparoscopy isn't going to work. Oh well, this just gives you more
recovery time to read, right? [g]
"Clean margins" is what you want to hear from the pathologist once it's out.
--
Eli V. Hestermann
ehestermann@charter.net
"Vita brevis est, ars longa" - Seneca
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24112
From: David Wright Sr."
Date: 10 Nov 2004 14:38:14 GMT
Subject: Re: Medical report
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com> wrote in news:41912BA3.9F51368D@aol.com:
> Bill--
> I looked at laproscopic but was at high risk because of previous
> surgery.
>
> And thank to all for you good wishes.
>
My belated best wishes and prayers for you Charles.
--
David Wright Sr.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24113
From: Filksinger
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 10:03:32 -0800
Subject: Re: Paperless Voting Illegal in California
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Charles Graft wrote:
> I still think my system is superior to those on the market today. Several on
> this forum have seen it demonstrated and input from several went into the project.
Your system is _undeniably_ better than most out there today.
--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24114
From: Filksinger
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 12:34:56 -0800
Subject: Re: Medical report
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
BC,
Sorry I haven't been keeping up on my newsgroup reading, so this would
reach you before your surgery. Best wishes for a speedy recovery!
Charles Graft wrote:
> Hi, All--
> Thought I would let you know I will be going into the hospital
> Wednesday (Nov. 10th) for prostate removal.
<snip>
--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24115
From: Robert Slater"
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 17:25:42 -0800
Subject: Re: Medical report
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Ditto BC,
SIFI Rob
> Sorry I haven't been keeping up on my newsgroup reading, so this would
> reach you before your surgery. Best wishes for a speedy recovery!
>
> Charles Graft wrote:
>> Hi, All--
>> Thought I would let you know I will be going into the hospital
>> Wednesday (Nov. 10th) for prostate removal.
> <snip>
>
> --
> Filksinger
> AKA David Nasset, Sr.
> Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24116
From: Ed Johnson
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 00:14:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Medical report
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Eli: My pathologist's report, as conveyed to me by the Senior
Urologist, sounded like something some lawyer would write. No
mention of clean margins. "The tumor appeared to be totally
encapsulated; we think we got it all.
?? "appeared to be..." ! "we think..." these were not the
strong, positive, reassuring words that a cancer patient wants to
hear.
I am making the most of it and can only hope and pray that Charlie
get a clean bill of health from his doctor when he has recovered
from this.
Ed J
On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 05:07:25 -0500, Eli Hestermann
<ehestermann@charter.net> wrote:
>BC-
>
>My thoughts and prayers will be with you.
>
>Sorry laparoscopy isn't going to work. Oh well, this just gives you more
>recovery time to read, right? [g]
>
>"Clean margins" is what you want to hear from the pathologist once it's out.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24117
From: Eli Hestermann
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 05:47:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Medical report
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Ed Johnson wrote:
>Eli: My pathologist's report, as conveyed to me by the Senior
>Urologist, sounded like something some lawyer would write. No
>mention of clean margins. "The tumor appeared to be totally
>encapsulated; we think we got it all.
> ?? "appeared to be..." ! "we think..." these were not the
>strong, positive, reassuring words that a cancer patient wants to
>hear.
>
>
"Totally encapsulated" means the same thing as "clean margins;"
basically, they got it all. I bet "appeared to be" and "we think" were
phrases suggested by a lawyer, and no, that's definitely not what a
patient wants to hear.
--
Eli V. Hestermann
ehestermann@charter.net
"Vita brevis est, ars longa" - Seneca
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24118
From: cdozo
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 20:35:01 -0600
Subject: Thanks
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
I would like to say thank you to all past and
present members of the Armed Services. And, I'd
also like to wish a happy Veteran's Day to everyone.
Carol
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24119
From: John Paul Vrolyk
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 18:34:32 -0800
Subject: Re: Thanks
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
cdozo wrote:
> I would like to say thank you to all past and
> present members of the Armed Services. And, I'd
> also like to wish a happy Veteran's Day to everyone.
You're welcome!
--
John Paul Vrolyk
jp@vrolyk.org
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24120
From: georule@civilwarstlouis.com
Date: 12 Nov 2004 03:05:31 GMT
Subject: A Photo Tour of Heinlein's Universe and the Heinlein Archives
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
. . .guided by your host with the most, Bill Patterson. Don't miss this
one, as it is by far the most complete tour of the Heinlein archives and
the folks behind it that has ever been produced. Exclusively at www.heinleinsociety.org
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24121
From: John Paul Vrolyk
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 19:05:23 -0800
Subject: Re: music-tech question
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
JT wrote:
> I didn't think there was a difference between DRM WMAs and the regular
> format as far as the codec/translation was concerned--I just figured
> that the WMA files get a certificate crazy-glued to them.
>
> This would be a great time for bytor tochime in, or even our resident
> 'softie that still reads here. (Hi JP!)
"Smile when you call me that!"
I don't know much about the DRM stuff, except that it
annoys me. :-) "Here, you can have this information,
but we're going to deliberately make it hard for you
to use it."
--
John Paul Vrolyk
jp@vrolyk.org
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24122
From: Filksinger
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 17:16:58 -0800
Subject: It's 2000 All Over Again!
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Well, sort of. The Washington State governor's seat is still up in the
air, with about 48.897% going to the Republican candidate, and 48.884%
going to the Democratic candidate. And, for extra fun, lawsuits and
legally mandated recounts.
Whee!
--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24123
From: cdozo
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 19:25:15 -0600
Subject: Re: It's 2000 All Over Again!
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Hee, hee!
Thanks for telling me.
Carol
==========
Filksinger wrote:
> Well, sort of. The Washington State governor's seat is still up in the
> air, with about 48.897% going to the Republican candidate, and 48.884%
> going to the Democratic candidate. And, for extra fun, lawsuits and
> legally mandated recounts.
>
> Whee!
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24124
From: Filksinger
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 17:26:16 -0800
Subject: Re: It's 2000 All Over Again!
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
cdozo wrote:
> Hee, hee!
>
> Thanks for telling me.
>
> Carol
Glad you liked it. Forgot to add a link, though.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2002089227_webvotes12.html
--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24125
From: Lorrita Morgan"
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 01:56:28 -0800
Subject: Re: It's 2000 All Over Again!
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
After all the name calling and mud slinging, this Washingtonian stopped
caring around October 15.
Truth, fairness, and justice got lost early in the gubernatorial race. By
the time, I received the fifth automated phone call telling me that a
candidate was incompetent, dishonest, or just lazy I was ready to either NOT
vote or lobby to lock both candidates in a very small room until only one
was left.
I don't know how campaigns went in other places, but here in Washington's
Fourth District I wanted to shower after every commercial.
--
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
`rita
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
"Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net> wrote in message
news:41956085.0@news.sff.net...
> Well, sort of. The Washington State governor's seat is still up in the
> air, with about 48.897% going to the Republican candidate, and 48.884%
> going to the Democratic candidate. And, for extra fun, lawsuits and
> legally mandated recounts.
>
> Whee!
> --
> Filksinger
> AKA David Nasset, Sr.
> Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24126
From: Lorrita Morgan"
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 01:59:27 -0800
Subject: Re: Medical report
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Charlie,
Here's praying that you are well and relatively pain free.
--
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
`rita
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
"Charles Graft" <chasgraft@aol.com> wrote in message
news:418F7A7E.E39B8040@aol.com...
> Hi, All--
> Thought I would let you know I will be going into the hospital
> Wednesday (Nov. 10th) for prostate removal. A routine high PSA
> (Prostate Sensitive Antigen) blood test sent me to the urologist for a
> biopsy which confirmed a small amount of cancer. I elected traditional
> surgical removal, radiation treatment would be miserable and the things
> would still be in there waiting for the next opportunity. Laproscopic
> surgery would be less invasive, but a higher risk as I have had previous
> abdominal surgery.
>
> Three to five days in the hospital; about six weeks recovery.
>
> I expect to have the laptop with me so will be able to answer
> E-Mails.
>
> --
> <<Big Charlie>>
>
> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In
> practice, however, there is.
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24127
From: Lorrita Morgan"
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 02:14:58 -0800
Subject: Re: Filksinger's Health (was: Re: Windows XP User Settings)
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Hopefully you'll feel better by January 4. Burger King or equivalent on me,
so your wife and I can ignore you for a couple hours. (Seattle VA Medical
Center appointment with overnight stays January 3 & 4)
Pain is not fun. Back problems are worse.
I'm surprised they didn't use open MRI. Much nicer than being stuck in the
tube. more like being a sandwich than a hotdog.
--
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
`rita
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
"Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net> wrote in message
news:418e842b.0@news.sff.net...
> Apologies to everybody.
>
> I have never been the most open about my private life, here or
> elsewhere. Some time ago, when my old back injury started going beyond
> just acting up, I told myself to let everyone know, then completely
> forgot that I hadn't.
>
> Many years ago, I injured my back working on a conveyor belt, sorting
> recyclables from garbage (well before I became a computer tech). It was
> originally diagnosed as a pulled muscle, but repeats of the problem,
> plus some odd symptoms, over the years revealed that it was probably a
> pinched or ruptured disk.
>
> In early June, the pain returned. As usual, they did little for me
> except give me cyclobenzaprine for muscle spasms, and ibuprofen for
> pain. This doctor didn't even want to give me codeine, though I have
> taken Percoset for it before.
>
> By the end of June, I had lost my job (only vaguely related, if at all,
> but looking for work is more than a bit difficult), but I thought I was
> getting better. Then, for the first time, I started feeling numbness in
> my legs. I also started feeling pain in my neck and, luckily, very mild
> numbness in the rest of my body.
>
> By early July, my legs were so numb I couldn't make ten steps without
> leaning on a walker (or cane, but when one leg or the other would fold
> suddenly, I'd just go right over). My wife has been using a heavy-duty
> mobility scooter for a while now, so now we take turns, with me using a
> heavy-duty wheeled walker with built-in seat when we have to go
> somewhere together. It took me until mid-July to get x-rays, and until
> early August to get MRIs. Oddly enough, at about this time, I stopped
> feeling more than comparatively minor pain in my back and neck, except
> occasional very painful exceptions.
>
> Mid-August, I finally got to see an orthopedist, who sent me for more
> MRIs, because of mis-communication between my first doctor and the
> people doing the MRIs. MRIs, incidentally, are great fun when you a)
> have claustrophobia, and b) weigh over 300 lbs. I had to put my arms
> over my head the entire time just to fit in the machine, and the machine
> was _very_ snug. (Recommendation: wear a mask, and pretend that you are
> lying in a divot in a surface, like a narrow recliner with arms on both
> sides, with nothing in front of your face at all. Also, don't even
> twitch, or it takes longer.)
>
> MRIs showed at least one ruptured disk in my neck, and three in my lower
> back (one ruptured on both sides). The ones in the lower back, luckily,
> put little pressure on the nerves of the spinal cord directly, but
> instead put pressure on the sciatic nerves. This is shown by the fact
> that I still mostly have bladder and bowel control, but numbness
> starting around my hips, and a tenseness around my waist as if I was
> wearing a wide belt two sizes too tight. Because the back was obviously
> far worse, I had surgery on that first, October 26th. (The only back
> _and_ neck specialist in the area covered by my insurance was very busy.)
>
> Came home last Friday, and have been slowly recovering at home. I have
> dropped the heavy-duty pain killers except as necessary either a)
> because I must go somewhere, or b) can't sleep. I have always hated
> those things with a passion, so often I'd rather take pain (Ibuprofen
> helps with inflammation, but I've never noticed significant pain
> reduction with anything short of codeine, for anything except muscle
> spasms, for which cyclobenzaprine works). (For those who didn't
> recognize the names oxycodone and diazepam, they are generics for
> Percoset and Valium, the first for pain, the second for muscle spasms,
> considerably stronger than codeine and cyclobenzaprine (Flexeril).)
>
> My legs are still weak and somewhat numb (and show other signs of nerve
> damage, such as characteristic leg tremblers), but better. My lower back
> hurts a lot more than it mostly has since July, but doesn't hurt too
> much so long as I don't move, and particularly do not use my arms to
> help lift myself. Unfortunately, my legs are still well short of strong
> enough to do the job on their own. I still walk like a question mark,
> often take multiple tries to stand, and can't get three feet without
> leaning on a walker, or a cane and walls and furniture (the heavy-duty
> walker won't fit through most of the doors or even open doorways in my
> house).
>
> For the very latest snafu, I set up my follow-up appointment for Monday,
> just after I got back, and as a result of drugs and pain cannot either
> remember the time _and_ forgot to write it down. I hope it wasn't early
> in the morning, as the time from my house to his office without detailed
> pre-planning is about 2 hours.
>
> Whee!
>
> Ed Johnson wrote:
> > On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 15:05:29 -0800, Filksinger
> > <filksinger@earthling.net> wrote:
> >
> > <major snip>
> >
> >>If I seem a bit out of it, chalk it up to diazepam and oxycodone.
> >
> >
> > Filk: Those are serious pain-killers: I hope that you won't have
> > to be on them for very long and are "in recovery". I was on them
> > briefly following major surgery two years ago.
> > I may have missed the reason for these medications from an
> > earlier post: ? back injury?. I hope that you are getting better
> > from whatever it is that is causing the pain.
> >
> > Ed J
>
> --
> Filksinger
> AKA David Nasset, Sr.
> Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24128
From: debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 17:17:47 GMT
Subject: Re: Medical report
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
> Thought I would let you know I will be going into the hospital
>Wednesday (Nov. 10th) for prostate removal.
BC--I'm sending all possible positive thoughts and hopes your way!
Deb Houdek Rule
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.heinleinprize.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24129
From: debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 17:17:48 GMT
Subject: Re: Filksinger's Health (was: Re: Windows XP User Settings)
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
>MRIs showed at least one ruptured disk in my neck, and three in my lower
>back (one ruptured on both sides).
Urk! Sooo sorry to hear of this all, Filksinger. Sounds kinda like
what the doctors/HMO pulled on Geo a few years back--took an emergency
room visit and me draining two cell phone batteries badgering them
with phone calls before they did proper tests to find and fix it
rather than just prescribing more drugs to ignore the problem.
Sorry the problems are still on-going, but glad the essential
problem has been found and fixed before it got completely disasterous.
Deb Houdek Rule
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.heinleinprize.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24130
From: debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 17:17:48 GMT
Subject: Re: Big Changes
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
> Patricia and I visited mall of america last spring. We might make
>another trip in the next few months. Can we get together then?
That would be great! I'll look forward to it.
> Geo must have completely flipped. A Californian move to
>Minnesota? In winter?
Geo is coping admirably. <g> He is heaping on huge doses of guilt
upon me in unlimited quantities. The great fun will be him crossing
the country, in winter, in a Mustang convertible, at the end of
January, with a cat. Now I'm not fretting about that... no, not
fretting at all...
Geo does have that unfortunate California-ness, but he did grow up
in Pennsylvania so is somewhat acquainted with winter. But I think in
Minnesota we deal with winter better than other areas--roads are
cleared fast and well, etc. And both sides of his family are from
Minnesota, so he has a bunch of relatives he doesn't really know still
living there.
>
> They do have Stuart Anderson steak houses there. As of last May.
As far as I know.
Deb Houdek Rule
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.heinleinprize.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24131
From: John Paul Vrolyk
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 09:14:28 -0800
Subject: Re: Medical report
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Charles Graft wrote:
> Thought I would let you know I will be going into the hospital
> Wednesday (Nov. 10th) for prostate removal.
> Three to five days in the hospital; about six weeks recovery.
Charlie,
Sorry to hear about your problem. I hope you're
recovering well now. We hope to stop by and see
you sometime next year when we move back to the
other side of the country.
--
John Paul Vrolyk
jp@vrolyk.org
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24132
From: John Paul Vrolyk
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 09:19:32 -0800
Subject: Re: Filksinger's Health (was: Re: Windows XP User Settings)
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Filksinger wrote:
> Many years ago, I injured my back...
Best wishes to get well soon, Filk.
--
John Paul Vrolyk
jp@vrolyk.org
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24133
From: georule@civilwarstlouis.com
Date: 14 Nov 2004 03:50:57 GMT
Subject: Re: Big Changes
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
People at work are surpised I'm letting her go by herself on such a big
trip. They think I should be worried about her ability to do it all by herself.
They obviously don't know my Heinlein Woman. This will be her 12th cross-continent
trip by herself, the large majority of them before she met me.
She's much more concerned, and dubious, about my ability to survive by myself
for a couple months. At least five times a day for the last few weeks, she
starts sentences with "I know you are a mature competent man who can take
care of himself. . ." followed by reminders/frets/concerns/pre-cooked meals/supplies
etc that show pretty clearly she doesn't "know" any such thing at the level
where it counts.
She's working on "grandma love" now. In other words, tons of food. She's
distressed that the freezer isn't big enuf to hold two months worth.
It's cute.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24134
From: Charles Graft
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 00:42:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Medical report
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
All--
Thanks for all your good wishes. I am now out of the hospital and
at home. Now to milk the recovery time for all it's worth. . . .
Ed--
I will be getting a call from the Doc's office early next week to
let me know when to come in for staple and catheter removal. I am on
pain pills with quite a bit of judgment on when I take them. Patricia
is taking good care of me.
--
<<Big Charlie>>
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In
practice, however, there is.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24135
From: JT
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 09:48:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Medical report
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 00:42:52 -0500, Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com>
wrote:
>at home. Now to milk the recovery time for all it's worth. . . .
>
Spoken like a true federal employee. ;)
(Takes one to know one! ;)
Glad to hear you're now recovering. Take it easy.
JT
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24136
From: William Keaton"
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 12:42:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Big Changes
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
<georule@civilwarstlouis.com> wrote in message
news:4196d621.0@news.sff.net...
> People at work are surpised I'm letting her go by herself on such a big
> trip. They think I should be worried about her ability to do it all by
herself.
I was thinking it before I read it. "They don't know Deb."
> They obviously don't know my Heinlein Woman.
> She's much more concerned, and dubious, about my ability to survive by
myself
> for a couple months. At least five times a day for the last few weeks, she
> starts sentences with "I know you are a mature competent man who can take
> care of himself. . ." followed by reminders/frets/concerns/pre-cooked
meals/supplies
> etc that show pretty clearly she doesn't "know" any such thing at the
level
> where it counts.
Now that's funny! Just tell her you have the pizza place on speed-dial 1,
and not to worry! <g>
But seriously, the trip in the Mustang convertible sounds interesting. I've
driven AZ-WI in January, and it's always a cold drive. Wear a hat if you're
going to drop the top, ok?
WJaKe
(who can't wait to drop the top on his PT sometime in January!)
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24137
From: William Keaton"
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 12:44:35 -0500
Subject: Re: Medical report
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Charles Graft" <chasgraft@aol.com> wrote in message
news:4196F05C.84C41830@aol.com...
> All--
> Thanks for all your good wishes. I am now out of the hospital and
> at home. Now to milk the recovery time for all it's worth. . . .
All right, so far so good. Hope the rest of the recovery goes well.
WJaKe
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24138
From: Ed Johnson
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 23:42:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Thanks
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
John Paul: You are probably too young to have been in any of the
shootin' wars (I hope: it is not something I wish on anyone, it is
just something that a few have had to endure). . . . Thinking of
serving recalls to mind my visit to Toronto - must have been
September of 1990. Two ships (? destroyers) were docked at Toronto
and were being retrofitted with Phalanx anti missile defense
systems. These ships were headed for the Persian Gulf TOA.
Ed J
On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 18:34:32 -0800, John Paul Vrolyk <jp@vrolyk.org>
wrote:
>cdozo wrote:
>> I would like to say thank you to all past and
>> present members of the Armed Services. And, I'd
>> also like to wish a happy Veteran's Day to everyone.
>
>You're welcome!
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24139
From: Ed Johnson
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 23:46:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Glory Road
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Rosie:
I got my hardbound copy of Glory Road delivered the other day
from Amazon dot com. It is a handsome copy from TOR publishers.
Ed
On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 22:23:29 -0500, "RPostelnek"
<rpostelnek@prodigy.net> wrote:
>We just got a hardback copy of Glory Road in at the library. Someone, I
>will have to check who has put out a new hardback edition.
>
>Rosie
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24140
From: cdozo
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 08:23:59 -0600
Subject: Re: Thanks
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
I figure that anyone who pledges their life in the
service of my country deserves my thanks. Whether
or not they ever get shot at.
When people enlist, they have no idea what the
future will hold. But they know what could happen,
and they sign up anyway. That deserves my respect
and my thanks.
So again, a hearty thank you to all of you.
And also a good morning, Carol
==========
Ed Johnson wrote:
> John Paul: You are probably too young to have been in any of the
> shootin' wars (I hope: it is not something I wish on anyone, it is
> just something that a few have had to endure). . . . Thinking of
> serving recalls to mind my visit to Toronto - must have been
> September of 1990. Two ships (? destroyers) were docked at Toronto
> and were being retrofitted with Phalanx anti missile defense
> systems. These ships were headed for the Persian Gulf TOA.
>
> Ed J
>
>
>
> On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 18:34:32 -0800, John Paul Vrolyk <jp@vrolyk.org>
> wrote:
>
>
>>cdozo wrote:
>>
>>>I would like to say thank you to all past and
>>>present members of the Armed Services. And, I'd
>>>also like to wish a happy Veteran's Day to everyone.
>>
>>You're welcome!
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24141
From: John Paul Vrolyk
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 06:58:03 -0800
Subject: Re: Thanks
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Ed, Carol,
> Ed Johnson wrote:
> > John Paul: You are probably too young to have been in any of the
> > shootin' wars
cdozo wrote:
> When people enlist, they have no idea what the
> future will hold.
As Infantry, it wouldn't suprise me too much if
I end up in Iraq or Afganistan in short order
after I finish boot camp. But we'll see.
--
John Paul Vrolyk
jp@vrolyk.org
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24142
From: cdozo
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 09:21:07 -0600
Subject: Re: Thanks
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
JP,
Best of luck wherever you go. <closes eyes and
makes a wish>...Hopefully to Germany, like Elvis. :)
Carol
John Paul Vrolyk wrote:
> Ed, Carol,
>
>
>>Ed Johnson wrote:
>>
>>>John Paul: You are probably too young to have been in any of the
>>>shootin' wars
>
>
> cdozo wrote:
>
>>When people enlist, they have no idea what the
>>future will hold.
>
>
> As Infantry, it wouldn't suprise me too much if
> I end up in Iraq or Afganistan in short order
> after I finish boot camp. But we'll see.
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24143
From: Lorrita Morgan"
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:05:32 -0800
Subject: Re: Medical report
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Just be healthy and take the pampering. (I get bossy and nagging when I'm
concerned.)
Glad you're doing better.
--
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
`rita
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
"Charles Graft" <chasgraft@aol.com> wrote in message
news:4196F05C.84C41830@aol.com...
> All--
> Thanks for all your good wishes. I am now out of the hospital and
> at home. Now to milk the recovery time for all it's worth. . . .
>
> Ed--
> I will be getting a call from the Doc's office early next week to
> let me know when to come in for staple and catheter removal. I am on
> pain pills with quite a bit of judgment on when I take them. Patricia
> is taking good care of me.
>
> --
> <<Big Charlie>>
>
> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In
> practice, however, there is.
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24144
From: Filksinger
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 00:27:02 -0800
Subject: Re: It's 2000 All Over Again!
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Update on Washington governor's race:
Several things happened today.
First, Greys Harbor county announced that, tipped off by a 93% voter
turnout, that they had apparently fed the vote counting machines some
data disks twice. They expect to have the electronic recount done by
tomorrow morning. This is expected to feed an extra 500 votes to the
Democratic runner-up.
Next, a judge ordered about 400 provisional ballots in King County which
had been challenged by the Republican party to be counted. King County
leans towards the Democrats.
At last count, only _19_ votes separated the Republican front-runner
from the Democratic runner-up. There are still over 6000 votes to be
counted, total, including the recount in Greys Harbor.
State-wide mandatory recounts are pretty much an inevitability. Manual
recounts are almost as likely.
Bring the wife and kiddies! Come and see the show! Fun for the whole family!
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2002092717_webvotegov16.html
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2002091974_recount16m.html
http://www.kirotv.com/politics/3899757/detail.html
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/199989_governor17.html
Filksinger wrote:
> Well, sort of. The Washington State governor's seat is still up in the
> air, with about 48.897% going to the Republican candidate, and 48.884%
> going to the Democratic candidate. And, for extra fun, lawsuits and
> legally mandated recounts.
>
> Whee!
--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24145
From: Filksinger
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 19:01:08 -0800
Subject: Re: It's 2000 All Over Again!
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Count as of late this afternoon, Christine Gregoire (D) over Dino
Rossi(R) by 28 votes. Looks like a manual recount.
Filksinger wrote:
> Update on Washington governor's race:
<snip>
--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24146
From: georule@civilwarstlouis.com
Date: 18 Nov 2004 05:23:09 GMT
Subject: Re: Big Changes
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Sensibleness has set in on the automotive front:
Sold Deb's '72 Firebird on ebay (money already received), so we don't have
to either tow it, or put more money in it so that it will make the trip
with confidence. Also on that last we'd have to have an inside place to
put it, as they are notorious rust-collectors in real weather.
Traded in the Mustang convertible for a 2004 (Nice sales right now on 2004s!
Got a $40k vehicle for $27k) Dodge Durango 4x4 Limited with almost all the
goodies. In order to ease the transition from my Mustang got a model with
the 5.7l 335hp Hemi V8 and a power sunroof. This will make the trip much
Northeast in the middle of winter with a big cat and various supplies less
"interesting", be more practical once on site, and not saddle us with a
monthly payment on a vehicle that will sit in the garage for months at a
time (the Mustang). Deb was going to give me her Olds Bravada (Chevy Blazer
clone) and buy an old clunker for herself --but I've noticed that sweetums
has reached a stage of life where she values her comfort, so I didn't think
that was too practical. This way both of us have good, practical vehicles
for the locale and we "only" have two vehicles, instead of four.
For awhile --she extracted a promise for a '78 Trans Am special edition
once we're settled in MN in a house, with jobs, garage, etc.
Now if I can keep her mits off my Durango once she feels that Hemi pull.
. .
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24147
From: Filksinger
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 22:44:56 -0800
Subject: New FBI Surveilance Tool
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
The FBI has a new tool for tracking people on the Internet. For more
details, click on:
http://users.chartertn.net/tonytemplin/FBI_eyes/
--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24148
From: Filksinger
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 23:05:01 -0800
Subject: Re: It's 2000 All Over Again!
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Electronic recount, not manual. Dino Rossi (R) won by 261 votes over
Christine Gregoire (D).
Me, I'm hoping for a coin toss when they come up even.:)
Filksinger wrote:
> Count as of late this afternoon, Christine Gregoire (D) over Dino
> Rossi(R) by 28 votes. Looks like a manual recount.
>
>
> Filksinger wrote:
>
>> Update on Washington governor's race:
>
> <snip>
>
--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24149
From: Charles Graft
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 09:08:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Medical report
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
All--
I'm scheduled to see the Doc in his office at 2:30 Friday (19th)
for removal of staples and (I hope) the catheter.
--
<<Big Charlie>>
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In
practice, however, there is.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24150
From: cdozo
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 08:17:45 -0600
Subject: Re: Medical report
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
I'm glad things are going well.
Carol
=========
Charles Graft wrote:
> All--
> I'm scheduled to see the Doc in his office at 2:30 Friday (19th)
> for removal of staples and (I hope) the catheter.
>
> --
> <<Big Charlie>>
>
> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In
> practice, however, there is.
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24151
From: William Keaton"
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 09:27:53 -0500
Subject: Re: It's 2000 All Over Again!
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net> wrote in message
news:419c499d.0@news.sff.net...
> Electronic recount, not manual. Dino Rossi (R) won by 261 votes over
> Christine Gregoire (D).
I heard on the radio this morning they were going to do a re-count. You
think we've heard the last of this?
> Me, I'm hoping for a coin toss when they come up even.:)
Coin toss, phaw! In the town I once called home, Show Low, AZ, the 1990 (I
believe) race for mayor ended in a dead tie. Now, the land for Show Low was
won in a card game called (yep!) show low. The main street is called Duece
of Clubs, for the low card in that winning hand. It was, at one time, a wild
and wooly western town. So when the mayoral race ended in a tie, the two
candidates decided, in the spirit and history of the town, they would decide
the election in a suitable and authentic method.
They cut cards, low man wins.
That's how you decide an election, pardner.
WJaKe
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24152
From: Filksinger
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 10:14:14 -0800
Subject: Re: It's 2000 All Over Again!
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
William Keaton wrote:
> "Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net> wrote in message
> news:419c499d.0@news.sff.net...
>
>>Electronic recount, not manual. Dino Rossi (R) won by 261 votes over
>>Christine Gregoire (D).
>
>
> I heard on the radio this morning they were going to do a re-count. You
> think we've heard the last of this?
Absolutely not. Recount is mandatory, and they haven't exactly been
doing a stellar job of counting so far. However, no recount has ever
gotten a different answer in this state.
>>Me, I'm hoping for a coin toss when they come up even.:)
<snip>
> They cut cards, low man wins.
>
> That's how you decide an election, pardner.
Too much class, tradition, and style. None of those things belong in
_this_ election.
--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24153
From: Filksinger
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 10:43:22 -0800
Subject: Re: It's 2000 All Over Again!
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Lorrita Morgan wrote:
> After all the name calling and mud slinging, this Washingtonian stopped
> caring around October 15.
>
> Truth, fairness, and justice got lost early in the gubernatorial race. By
> the time, I received the fifth automated phone call telling me that a
> candidate was incompetent, dishonest, or just lazy I was ready to either NOT
> vote or lobby to lock both candidates in a very small room until only one
> was left.
>
> I don't know how campaigns went in other places, but here in Washington's
> Fourth District I wanted to shower after every commercial.
>
Pretty much the same, here. Worse was the race between George Nethercutt
(R) and Patty Murray (D) for the US Senate. Nethercutt's "Patty Murray
likes Osama bin Laden" ad was so sleazy that I didn't bother considering
him from that moment forward.
For those who don't know, Patty Murray was on camera when asked by a
high-school student why so many people in the Middle East supported Bin
Laden over the US. Her answer was then taken out of context for ads
purporting to show that Murray supported Bin Laden and thought that Bin
Laden "made lives better".
--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24154
From: JT
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 18:47:15 -0500
Subject: Re: New FBI Surveilance Tool
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 22:44:56 -0800, Filksinger
<filksinger@earthling.net> wrote:
>The FBI has a new tool for tracking people on the Internet. For more
>details, click on:
>
>http://users.chartertn.net/tonytemplin/FBI_eyes/
Given that it came from you, I was very surprised when I went to the
site. ;)
JT
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24155
From: Charles Graft
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 11:12:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Medical report
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
All--
Catheter -- removed.
Staples -- mostly removed -- will finish Monday
Biopsy report -- 100% positive.
Next round -- Dec. 22nd to set a date for return to work.
Thanks for all your support and good wishes.
--
<<Big Charlie>>
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In
practice, however, there is.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 24156
From: William Keaton"
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 11:34:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Medical report
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Sounds like a great recovery so far! Way to go Big C!!
WJaKe
"Charles Graft" <chasgraft@aol.com> wrote in message
news:419F6CF8.CD33DEF3@aol.com...
> All--
> Catheter -- removed.
> Staples -- mostly removed -- will finish Monday
> Biopsy report -- 100% positive.
> Next round -- Dec. 22nd to set a date for return to work.
>
> Thanks for all your support and good wishes.
> --
> <<Big Charlie>>
>
> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In
> practice, however, there is.
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------
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