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Archive of:   sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Archive desc: The Internet home for the Heinlein Forum
Archived by:  webnews@sff.net
Archive date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 20:20:19
============================================================

Article 23491
From: fader55@delete.sbcglobal.net (Fader)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 12:52:09 GMT
Subject: On being a good christian
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Beth's mom sent this, some of the practices seem interesting, I may
have to stop being a lapsed catholic <BG>,


        
On her radio show recently, Dr Laura Schlesinger said that
homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22, and
cannot
be condoned under any circumstance. The following response is an open
letter to Dr. Laura, penned by a US resident, which was posted on the
Internet. It's funny, as well as informative:

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's
Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that
knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend
the
homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus
18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. ... End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other
elements of God's Law and how to follow them.

1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates
a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors.
They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in
Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair
price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in
her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is
how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and
female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend
of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can
you
clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus
35:2. The passage clearly states he should be put to death. Am I
morally
obligated to kill him myself?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an
abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than
homosexuality.
I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of
abomination?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I
have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading
glasses.
Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the
hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by
Lev.19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig
makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two
different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing
garments
made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He
also
tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go
to
all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? -
Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family
affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev.
20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy
considerable expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can
help.
Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and
unchanging.

Your adoring fan,
James M. Kauffman, Ed.D.
Professor Emeritus
Dept. of Curriculum, Instruction, and Special Education
University of Virginia


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23492
From: fader55@delete.sbcglobal.net (Fader)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 12:54:56 GMT
Subject: Interesting Judge
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Personally I hadn't heard any of this, including that this trial was
over, Kinda interesting tho.



Remember the guy who got on a plane with a bomb built into his shoe
and tried to light it? Did you know his trial is over?

Did you know he was sentenced?

Did you see/hear any of the judge's comments on TV/Radio?

Didn't think so, media at work again. Everyone should hear what the
judge had to say.

Ruling by Judge William Young, U.S. District Court

Prior to sentencing, the Judge asked the defendant if he had anything
to say. His response: After admitting his guilt to the court for the
record, Reid also admitted his "allegiance to Osama bin Laden, to
Islam, and to the religion of Allah," defiantly stated "I think I
ought not apologize for my actions," and told the court "I am at war
with your country."

Judge Young then delivered the statement quoted below, a stinging
condemnation of Reid in particular and terrorists in general.

January 30, 2003 United States vs. Reid.

Judge Young:

"Mr. Richard C. Reid, hearken now to the sentence the Court imposes
upon you. On counts 1, 5 and 6 the Court sentences you to life in
prison in the custody of the United States Attorney General. On counts
2, 3, 4 and 7, the Court sentences you to 20 years in prison on each
count, the sentence on each count to run consecutive with the other.
That's 80 years. On count 8 the Court sentences you to the mandatory
30 years consecutive  to the 80 years just imposed.  The Court imposes
upon you each of the eight counts a fine of $250,000 for the aggregate
fine of $2 million. The Court accepts the government's recommendation
with respect to restitution and orders restitution in the amount of
$298.17 to Andre Bousquet and $5,784 to American Airlines. The Court
imposes upon you the $800 special assessment.

The Court imposes upon you five years supervised release simply
because the law requires it. But the life sentences are real life
sentences so I need go no further. This is the sentence that is
provided for by our statutes. It is a fair and just sentence. It is a
righteous sentence.

Let me explain this to you. We are not afraid of you or any of your
terrorist co-conspirators, Mr. Reid. We are Americans. We have been
through the fire before. There is all too much war talk here. And I
say that to everyone with the utmost respect. Here in this court,
where we deal with individuals as individuals, and care for
individuals as individuals.

As human beings, we reach out for justice. You are not an enemy
combatant. You are a terrorist. You are not a soldier in any war. You
are a terrorist. To give you that reference, to call you a soldier,
gives you far too much stature. Whether it is the officers of
government who do it or your attorney who does it, or that happens to
be your view, you are a terrorist.  And we do not negotiate with
terrorists. We do not treaty with terrorists.  We do not sign
documents with terrorists. We hunt them down one by one and bring them
to justice.  So war talk is way out of line in this court. You are a
big fellow.  But you are not that big. You're no warrior. I know
warriors. You are a terrorist. A species of criminal guilty of
multiple attempted murders. In a very real sense, State Trooper
Santiago had it right when you first were taken off that plane and
into custody and you wondered where the press and where the TV crews
were, and he said you're no big deal. You're no big  deal.

What your counsel, what your able counsel and what the equally able
United States attorneys have grappled with and what I have as honestly
as I know how tried to grapple with, is why you did something so
horrific. What was it that led you here to this courtroom today? I
have listened respectfully to what you have to say. And I ask you to
search your heart and ask yourself what sort of unfathomable hate led
you to do what you are guilty and admit you are guilty of doing. And I
have an answer for you.

It may not satisfy you. But as I search this entire record, it comes
as close to understanding as I know. It seems to me you hate the one
thing that is most precious. You hate our freedom. Our individual
freedom.  Our individual freedom to live as we choose, to come and go
as we choose, to believe or not believe as we individually choose.

Here, in this society, the very winds carry freedom. They carry it
everywhere from sea to shining sea. It is because we prize individual
freedom so much that you are here in this beautiful courtroom. So that
everyone can see, truly see that justice is administered fairly,
individually, and discretely. It is for freedom's sake that your
lawyers are striving so vigorously on your behalf and have filed
appeals, will go on in their representation of you before other
judges. We are about it.  Because we all know that the way we treat
you, Mr. Reid, is the measure of our own liberties.

Make no mistake though. It is yet true that we will bare any burden,
pay any price, to preserve our freedoms. Look around this courtroom.
Mark it well. The world is not going to long remember what you or I
say here. Day after tomorrow it will be forgotten. But this, however,
will long endure.

Here in this courtroom and courtrooms all across America, the American
people will gather to see that justice, individual justice, justice,
not war, individual justice is in fact being done.

The very President of the United States through his officers will have
to come into courtrooms and lay out evidence on which specific matters
can be judged, and juries of citizens will gather to sit and judge
that evidence democratically, to mold and shape and refine our sense
of justice.

See that flag, Mr. Reid?

That's the flag of the United States of America. That flag will fly
there long after this is all forgotten. That flag stands for freedom.
You know it always will.

Custody, Mr. Officer. Stand him down."

So, how much of this Judge's comments did we hear on our TV sets? We
need more judges like Judge Young, but that's another subject.

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23493
From: \"gunner\"" 
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 14:57:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Interesting Judge
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

i agree with you that we need more judges like that fader, but if the
"mainstream" media did try to bury those remarks they've taken a life of
their own on the internet, this is the "severalth" time i've seen them
posted in various places.
"gunner"
-------------------------------------
"Fader" <fader55@delete.sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:404c6ca5.50531258@news.sff.net...
> Personally I hadn't heard any of this, including that this trial was
> over, Kinda interesting tho.
>
>
>
> Remember the guy who got on a plane with a bomb built into his shoe
> and tried to light it? Did you know his trial is over?
>
> Did you know he was sentenced?
>
> Did you see/hear any of the judge's comments on TV/Radio?
>
> Didn't think so, media at work again. Everyone should hear what the
> judge had to say.
>
> Ruling by Judge William Young, U.S. District Court
>
> Prior to sentencing, the Judge asked the defendant if he had anything
> to say. His response: After admitting his guilt to the court for the
> record, Reid also admitted his "allegiance to Osama bin Laden, to
> Islam, and to the religion of Allah," defiantly stated "I think I
> ought not apologize for my actions," and told the court "I am at war
> with your country."
>
> Judge Young then delivered the statement quoted below, a stinging
> condemnation of Reid in particular and terrorists in general.
>
> January 30, 2003 United States vs. Reid.
>
> Judge Young:
>
> "Mr. Richard C. Reid, hearken now to the sentence the Court imposes
> upon you. On counts 1, 5 and 6 the Court sentences you to life in
> prison in the custody of the United States Attorney General. On counts
> 2, 3, 4 and 7, the Court sentences you to 20 years in prison on each
> count, the sentence on each count to run consecutive with the other.
> That's 80 years. On count 8 the Court sentences you to the mandatory
> 30 years consecutive  to the 80 years just imposed.  The Court imposes
> upon you each of the eight counts a fine of $250,000 for the aggregate
> fine of $2 million. The Court accepts the government's recommendation
> with respect to restitution and orders restitution in the amount of
> $298.17 to Andre Bousquet and $5,784 to American Airlines. The Court
> imposes upon you the $800 special assessment.
>
> The Court imposes upon you five years supervised release simply
> because the law requires it. But the life sentences are real life
> sentences so I need go no further. This is the sentence that is
> provided for by our statutes. It is a fair and just sentence. It is a
> righteous sentence.
>
> Let me explain this to you. We are not afraid of you or any of your
> terrorist co-conspirators, Mr. Reid. We are Americans. We have been
> through the fire before. There is all too much war talk here. And I
> say that to everyone with the utmost respect. Here in this court,
> where we deal with individuals as individuals, and care for
> individuals as individuals.
>
> As human beings, we reach out for justice. You are not an enemy
> combatant. You are a terrorist. You are not a soldier in any war. You
> are a terrorist. To give you that reference, to call you a soldier,
> gives you far too much stature. Whether it is the officers of
> government who do it or your attorney who does it, or that happens to
> be your view, you are a terrorist.  And we do not negotiate with
> terrorists. We do not treaty with terrorists.  We do not sign
> documents with terrorists. We hunt them down one by one and bring them
> to justice.  So war talk is way out of line in this court. You are a
> big fellow.  But you are not that big. You're no warrior. I know
> warriors. You are a terrorist. A species of criminal guilty of
> multiple attempted murders. In a very real sense, State Trooper
> Santiago had it right when you first were taken off that plane and
> into custody and you wondered where the press and where the TV crews
> were, and he said you're no big deal. You're no big  deal.
>
> What your counsel, what your able counsel and what the equally able
> United States attorneys have grappled with and what I have as honestly
> as I know how tried to grapple with, is why you did something so
> horrific. What was it that led you here to this courtroom today? I
> have listened respectfully to what you have to say. And I ask you to
> search your heart and ask yourself what sort of unfathomable hate led
> you to do what you are guilty and admit you are guilty of doing. And I
> have an answer for you.
>
> It may not satisfy you. But as I search this entire record, it comes
> as close to understanding as I know. It seems to me you hate the one
> thing that is most precious. You hate our freedom. Our individual
> freedom.  Our individual freedom to live as we choose, to come and go
> as we choose, to believe or not believe as we individually choose.
>
> Here, in this society, the very winds carry freedom. They carry it
> everywhere from sea to shining sea. It is because we prize individual
> freedom so much that you are here in this beautiful courtroom. So that
> everyone can see, truly see that justice is administered fairly,
> individually, and discretely. It is for freedom's sake that your
> lawyers are striving so vigorously on your behalf and have filed
> appeals, will go on in their representation of you before other
> judges. We are about it.  Because we all know that the way we treat
> you, Mr. Reid, is the measure of our own liberties.
>
> Make no mistake though. It is yet true that we will bare any burden,
> pay any price, to preserve our freedoms. Look around this courtroom.
> Mark it well. The world is not going to long remember what you or I
> say here. Day after tomorrow it will be forgotten. But this, however,
> will long endure.
>
> Here in this courtroom and courtrooms all across America, the American
> people will gather to see that justice, individual justice, justice,
> not war, individual justice is in fact being done.
>
> The very President of the United States through his officers will have
> to come into courtrooms and lay out evidence on which specific matters
> can be judged, and juries of citizens will gather to sit and judge
> that evidence democratically, to mold and shape and refine our sense
> of justice.
>
> See that flag, Mr. Reid?
>
> That's the flag of the United States of America. That flag will fly
> there long after this is all forgotten. That flag stands for freedom.
> You know it always will.
>
> Custody, Mr. Officer. Stand him down."
>
> So, how much of this Judge's comments did we hear on our TV sets? We
> need more judges like Judge Young, but that's another subject.



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23494
From: Bill Dauphin 
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 20:15:40 -0500
Subject: Re: On being a good christian
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On 3/8/04 7:52 AM, in article 404c6bbc.50298478@news.sff.net, "Fader"
<fader55@delete.sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> Beth's mom sent this, some of the practices seem interesting, I may
> have to stop being a lapsed catholic <BG>,
> 
> 
>       
> On her radio show recently, Dr Laura Schlesinger said that
> homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22, and
> cannot
> be condoned under any circumstance. The following response is an open
> letter to Dr. Laura, penned by a US resident, which was posted on the
> Internet. It's funny, as well as informative:
> 
> Dear Dr. Laura: <snip>

I don't know if this letter is genuine or apocryphal, nor which came first,
but this is very similar to a dressing down given by the West Wing's
fictional President Bartlet to a radio personality obviously modeled on the
odious "Dr." Laura. One of my favorite moments on one of my (current)
favorite shows.

-JovBill


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23495
From: Bill Dauphin 
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 20:59:55 -0500
Subject: More on "on being a good christian
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On 3/8/04 8:15 PM, in article BC7284EC.BBA-dauphinb@ix.netcom.com, "Bill
Dauphin" <dauphinb@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> I don't know if this letter is genuine or apocryphal,

A little of both, it seems. I did a quick Google search and found seemingly
endless reprintings, attributed sometimes to different names but often
simply to "a U.S. Resident." Obviously *somebody* wrote the letter, but the
name that seems most persuasively linked to it is not the name you gave
(though I did find several references to it, too), but Kent (or perhaps J.
Kent) Ashcraft. The first time I saw that one, I thought it was a
transparent fake, because of the similarity to John AshcrOft, but read on:

> nor which came first,
> but this is very similar to a dressing down given by the West Wing's
> fictional President Bartlet to a radio personality obviously modeled on the
> odious "Dr." Laura.

The letter seems to have come first. Apparently West Wing creator Aaron
Sorkin, who wrote the episode (it was in the second season, when he was
still in charge) freely admitted in an interview that the much-circulated
internet letter was his source, and said they "cast a broad net" (OWTTE)
trying to find the original author so they could give credit. The author
found them after the episode aired, and a compensation deal was reportedly
worked out.

Here's a link to a West Wing fan site that has all the particulars,
including links to both the text of the fictional speech and what appears to
be a fairly authoritative identification of Ashcraft as the original author:

http://westwing.bewarne.com/second/25letter.html

Of course, nothing in internet-land is really certain, but this version has
a certain ring of truth.


-JovBill



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23496
From: William J. Keaton" 
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 00:47:08 -0500
Subject: Re: More on "on being a good christian
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

I love it when someone goes Old Testament, there's always so much other
interesting stuff to find there. And much of it is contradictory to other
chapters; I won't even discuss ways the Old and New Testaments are at odds
with each other. Sometimes I wonder how these two collections can possibly
be the basis for one religion!

(Not meaning to run down any particular cast of Christianity, or anyone else
for that matter!)

WJaKe



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23497
From: William J. Keaton" 
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 00:56:57 -0500
Subject: Books Delivered
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

From the March 2004 Locus:

Spider Robinson has delivered SF mystery thriller "Very Bad Deaths" to Baen,
expect a Dec. 2004 release. Also, BenBalla Books has a Nov. 2004 release for
"The Crazy Years" a collection of Spider's columns from the Canadian
newspaper The Globe and Mail dating from 1996 to 2003.

WJaKe says check out www.spiderrobinson.com for some more cool info on these
titles.



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23498
From: fader55@delete.sbcglobal.net (Fader)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 09:36:45 GMT
Subject: Re: Interesting Judge
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Mon, 8 Mar 2004 14:57:46 -0500, "\"gunner\"" <gunnera4@sover.net>
wrote:

>i agree with you that we need more judges like that fader, but if the
>"mainstream" media did try to bury those remarks they've taken a life of
>their own on the internet, this is the "severalth" time i've seen them
>posted in various places.
>"gunner"


Even the "comments" aside, I don't remember hearing about any of this
after the initial arrest. Wonder just what/how things are detrimined
as being "newsworthy".

Fader

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23499
From: fader55@delete.sbcglobal.net (Fader)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 09:39:57 GMT
Subject: Re: On being a good christian
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Mon, 08 Mar 2004 20:15:40 -0500, Bill Dauphin
<dauphinb@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>I don't know if this letter is genuine or apocryphal, nor which came first,
>but this is very similar to a dressing down given by the West Wing's
>fictional President Bartlet to a radio personality obviously modeled on the
>odious "Dr." Laura. One of my favorite moments on one of my (current)
>favorite shows.
>
I really like West Wing too, & it is like that scene( also a
favorite), smiting just seems like something I'd like to be able to
do.<g>

Fader


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23500
From: Eli Hestermann 
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 19:18:26 -0500
Subject: Re: On being a good christian
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

I lurk more than post these days, but I wanted to say that I've enjoyed 
these last couple posts, Fader.

-- 
Eli V. Hestermann
ehestermann@charter.net
"Vita brevis est, ars longa" - Seneca


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23501
From: Dean White" 
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 18:16:19 -0600
Subject: Re: Interesting Judge
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

"Fader" <fader55@delete.sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:404d8f71.72887634@news.sff.net...
> On Mon, 8 Mar 2004 14:57:46 -0500, "\"gunner\"" <gunnera4@sover.net>
> wrote:
>
> >i agree with you that we need more judges like that fader, but if the
> >"mainstream" media did try to bury those remarks they've taken a life of
> >their own on the internet, this is the "severalth" time i've seen them
> >posted in various places.
> >"gunner"
>
>
> Even the "comments" aside, I don't remember hearing about any of this
> after the initial arrest. Wonder just what/how things are detrimined
> as being "newsworthy".
>
> Fader

I did hear about his conviction on NPR and even though they did not
broadcast the judge's complete comment they did give the gist of it.

-- 
www.DeanWhite.net
 has contact information



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23502
From: Filksinger" 
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 19:31:20 -0800
Subject: Re: Where is Everybody?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In news:ag.plusone-ED8321.18512604032004@wixer.greyware.com, David M.
Silver <ag.plusone@verizon.net> typed:
<snip>
> Love to see you, 'rita, if you (Rob? bytor? anyone else?) can make it.
>
> David

Already told 'rita that I'm planning on making Norwescon, so I'll be there.
Hopefully I can actually pay, instead of hang around the lobby for a while,
then leaving.:(

Regardless, I'll be glad to see any cobbers who make it.
-- 
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23503
From: David M. Silver" 
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 00:07:44 -0800
Subject: Re: Where is Everybody?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <404e8ea8.0@news.sff.net>,
 "Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net> wrote:

> In news:ag.plusone-ED8321.18512604032004@wixer.greyware.com, David M.
> Silver <ag.plusone@verizon.net> typed:
> <snip>
> > Love to see you, 'rita, if you (Rob? bytor? anyone else?) can make it.
> >
> > David
> 
> Already told 'rita that I'm planning on making Norwescon, so I'll be there.
> Hopefully I can actually pay, instead of hang around the lobby for a while,
> then leaving.:(
> 
> Regardless, I'll be glad to see any cobbers who make it.

Will be registered in Parlor Suite 1375, the last I heard. There should 
be a fan table somewhere near where they sell tickets that says Heinlein 
Society on it. Looking forward to seeing any cobbers, Filksinger.

-- 
David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, Lt.(jg), USN, R'td, 1907-88

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23504
From: fader55@delete.sbcglobal.net (Fader)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 10:16:44 GMT
Subject: Re: On being a good christian
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Tue, 09 Mar 2004 19:18:26 -0500, Eli Hestermann
<ehestermann@charter.net> wrote:

>I lurk more than post these days, but I wanted to say that I've enjoyed 
>these last couple posts, Fader.
>
Glad you liked 'em, Eli. We'ren't you the one who mentioned
Quicksliver? I just started it, found it in Half-Priced Books the
other day, noticed that some of the names are the same as in
Cryptnomicon. Anything to do with each other?

Fader


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23505
From: cdozo 
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 08:28:34 -0600
Subject: NYT -- FUTL
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Today's New York Time has a write-up on For Us the Living. For today,
the link is http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/10/books/10HEIN.html.

After today (3-10-2004), you'll be able to find it for the next 30
days by searching the NYT site. After that it will be locatable, but
it will cost money to read the full article.

Carol

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23506
From: Ed Johnson 
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 23:03:15 -0500
Subject: Re: NYT -- FUTL
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Carol:        Is there some way to get to this article without
registering with NY Times?
   I can't seem to get past their first page.

Ed J
    
On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 08:28:34 -0600, cdozo <cadozo@planet-save.com>
wrote:

>Today's New York Time has a write-up on For Us the Living. For today,
>the link is http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/10/books/10HEIN.html.
>
>After today (3-10-2004), you'll be able to find it for the next 30
>days by searching the NYT site. After that it will be locatable, but
>it will cost money to read the full article.
>
>Carol


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23507
From: cdozo 
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 09:48:23 -0600
Subject: Re: NYT -- FUTL
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Ed (and anyone else who's interested),

E-mail me at cdozo(at)planet-save.com and I'll tell you how to read
it.

Carol
---------

On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 23:03:15 -0500, Ed Johnson
<eljohn2@comcast.spamthis.net > wrote:

>Carol:        Is there some way to get to this article without
>registering with NY Times?
>   I can't seem to get past their first page.
>
>Ed J
>    
>On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 08:28:34 -0600, cdozo <cadozo@planet-save.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Today's New York Time has a write-up on For Us the Living. For today,
>>the link is http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/10/books/10HEIN.html.
>>
>>After today (3-10-2004), you'll be able to find it for the next 30
>>days by searching the NYT site. After that it will be locatable, but
>>it will cost money to read the full article.
>>
>>Carol


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23508
From: Kevin Patrick Crowley 
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 10:52:37 -0600
Subject: Re: NYT -- FUTL Full text
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


Heinlein's Prophetic First Novel, Lost and Found
By MEL GUSSOW

Published: March 10, 2004

In 1939, after leaving the United States Navy and failing in local 
politics in California, Robert A. Heinlein, then 32, decided to become a 
writer. He wrote a Utopian novel, "For Us, the Living," taking the title 
from Lincoln's Gettysburg Address. Two publishers rejected it, so he 
shelved the book and later discarded the original manuscript.
	
Advertisement

But he did not lose his literary aspirations. He began writing short 
stories, and when one was printed in the magazine Astounding Science 
Fiction it opened the door to what became an extraordinary career. Long 
before he died in 1988, Heinlein, the author of "Stranger in a Strange 
Land" and many other books, was ranked with Isaac Asimov and Arthur C. 
Clarke as one of the most important novelists of the golden age of 
science fiction.

As for his first novel, it remained lost for more than 60 years, until a 
copy of the manuscript was discovered in a garage in Seattle. Recently 
published, "For Us, the Living" adds another dimension to Heinlein's 
body of work.

Less a traditional commercial novel than philosophical fiction, it has 
value for its prophecies and for the light it sheds on Heinlein's other 
books. One reason he refused to publish the novel later in his career 
was that he used it as a source for ideas and events that appeared in 
his subsequent work, including "Stranger in a Strange Land," "Starship 
Troopers" and the story "If This Goes On . . . ."

"It's completely rewritten my view of his career," said Robert James, a 
Heinlein scholar who wrote an afterword to "For Us, the Living." "The 
impression was that he was writing commercial fiction from Day 1. Like a 
juggernaut he dominated science fiction. Actually from Day 1 he was 
writing what society should be about."

In that sense, Mr. James said in a telephone interview, Heinlein was a 
very American writer, "descended from Mark Twain and others, trying to 
form a cultural response to their community." He added that the book 
might have been turned down originally because it "advocated fairly 
dangerous ideas," including a free-love attitude toward sex.

It tells the story of Perry Nelson, an ordinary man who apparently dies 
in an automobile accident in 1938 but is magically transported to 2086. 
In the manner of Edward Bellamy's "Looking Backward," the story gave 
Heinlein the opportunity to reflect on life over two centuries.

Although the book has didactic elements it also allowed him to make 
predictions about everything from the invention of the "telautograph" (a 
way of leaving phone messages) to man walking on the Moon. He also 
foresaw a revolution in sexual freedom, publicly owned banks and a 
united Europe with a common currency. One prediction was particularly 
dire: in 2003 a surprise aerial attack destroys Manhattan and nearly 80 
percent of the population.

When Heinlein died, his first novel seemed to have died with him. But at 
least one copy remained, and Mr. James was responsible for unearthing 
it. He came across a mention of it while doing research on Heinlein and 
sought out Michael Hunter, who had worked as a research assistant on a 
biography of Heinlein that was later abandoned.

Mr. Hunter, who lives in Seattle, had forgotten that he had a copy and 
found it in his garage. After Heinlein's wife, Virginia, died in January 
2003, Mr. James passed the book on to the Heinlein Society, a nonprofit 
organization devoted to the author's work. It was published in January 
by Scribner, with profits going to Heinlein's favorite cause, advancing 
the exploration of space.

After Heinlein died, the National Aeronautics and Space Administration 
awarded him the NASA Distinguished Public Service Medal for helping to 
"inspire the Nation to take its first step into space and onto the 
Moon." Last year the Heinlein Prize Trust established the Heinlein 
Prize, awarding $500,000 periodically to those who have made practical 
accomplishments in the commercial use of space.

In his introduction to "For Us, the Living," Spider Robinson, a science 
fiction author, finds the novel overflowing with favorite Heinlein 
themes, ideas and characters, a list that includes time travel, multiple 
identity, transcendence of physical death and "especially new future 
artforms like dance in variable gravity."

In the book there is an imaginative look back at the 20th century in 
which the Duke of Windsor becomes the emperor of the European alliance, 
agreeing to accept the role only if Wallis Simpson is named queen and 
empress. "They say that the English queen never got over it," one 
character says.

After serving as mayor of New York, Fiorello La Guardia succeeds 
Franklin Roosevelt as president for two terms. And at the turn of this 
century, the country is led by President Berzowski, who is not, as one 
might suppose, a fiction. A man named Berzowski, Mr. James said, was a 
classmate of Heinlein's at the United States Naval Academy at Annapolis.


cdozo wrote:

> Today's New York Time has a write-up on For Us the Living. For today,
> the link is http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/10/books/10HEIN.html.
> 
> After today (3-10-2004), you'll be able to find it for the next 30
> days by searching the NYT site. After that it will be locatable, but
> it will cost money to read the full article.
> 
> Carol

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23509
From: Eli Hestermann 
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 05:50:15 -0500
Subject: Quicksilver - spoilers
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Warning: there are some minor spoilers for Neal Stephenson's 
_Quicksilver_ below.


Fader wrote:

>Glad you liked 'em, Eli. We'ren't you the one who mentioned
>Quicksliver? I just started it, found it in Half-Priced Books the
>other day, noticed that some of the names are the same as in
>Cryptnomicon. Anything to do with each other?
>  
>

For the most part, I think he's just having fun with the names, showing 
the Waterhouses have been scientists for generations, same as the 
Shaftoes have been warriors and survivors.

Enoch Root (or Enoch the Red) is a different story. I think it's pretty 
clear that he's the exact same man (being?) who appears in 
_Cryptonomicon_. Mention is made in passing that his specialty is 
longevity, and at least one of the characters in _Quicksilver_ notices 
that he doesn't really age and accuses him of being a supernatural 
being. I'm wondering if we're going to get any resolution on that in the 
next two books of the Baroque Cycle.

-- 
Eli V. Hestermann
ehestermann@charter.net
"Vita brevis est, ars longa" - Seneca


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23510
From: fader55@delete.sbcglobal.net (Fader)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 07:54:08 GMT
Subject: Re: Quicksilver - spoilers
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 05:50:15 -0500, Eli Hestermann
<ehestermann@charter.net> wrote:

Thanx for the info, Eli, it seemed like there should be sequel for
Cryptnomicon too, or are we getting this series instead?

Fader


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23511
From: Eli Hestermann 
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 05:30:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Quicksilver - spoilers
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Fader wrote:

>On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 05:50:15 -0500, Eli Hestermann
><ehestermann@charter.net> wrote:
>
>Thanx for the info, Eli, it seemed like there should be sequel for
>Cryptnomicon too, or are we getting this series instead?
>  
>
I don't know. Stephenson's stories tend to have wide-open endings (his 
later stuff, anyway Snow Crash and Diamond Age do, but not so much 
Zodiac or The Big U). I don't know if these means he plans to write 
sequels, likes ending his stories that way, or is just keeping his 
options open.

-- 
Eli V. Hestermann
ehestermann@charter.net
"Vita brevis est, ars longa" - Seneca


------------------------------------------------------------

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