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Archive of:   sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Archive desc: The Internet home for the Heinlein Forum
Archived by:  webnews@sff.net
Archive date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 06:51:47
============================================================

Article 21951
From: Michael P. Calligaro" 
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 19:49:11 -0800
Subject: Re: Windows XP????
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Ooh, even better.  Use msconfig.  Just click your Start menu, select "run"
and type in "msconfig."  From there go to the last tab ("startup") and
you'll see everything that's set to run whenever you start windows.  If you
see something that's obviously something you shouldn't have, you can just
click the checkbox to get rid of it.  If you're not sure, post the command
and location here and one of us will tell you what it is.

bytor


"Michael P. Calligaro" <bytor@mystikeep.com> wrote in message
news:3dcdd880.0@news.sff.net...
> I found a really cool program this week for this kind of thing.  It's
built
> into XP, so you don't have to go to a website and download anything (which
> can be a dangerous thing).




------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21952
From: David Wright" 
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 22:34:55 -0500
Subject: Discussion Logs for 11-14 and 11-16-2002 Meetings of Heinlein Readers Group now available
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

The discussion log for the Thursday November 14th and 16th meetings of the
Heinlein
Readers' Group is now available at:

http://dwrighsr.tripod.com/heinlein/TJHT-SC_AIM-11-14-2002.html

http://dwrighsr.tripod.com/heinlein/TJHT-SC_AIM-11-16-2002.html

The topic was a continuation of the previous discussions on How to Teach
The Juveniles. These two discussions focused on _Space Cadet_. The title of
the discussions was "Space Cadet..Not a 'space cadet'".

David Wright





------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21953
From: Bob Lawson 
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 16:13:00 -0800
Subject: Re: Windows XP????
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

An addendum....
In my experience this was not able to keep windows messenger from 
running, something I very much wanted to do. If you'd like to remove it, 
Open C:\WINDOWS\inf\sysoc.inf and change 
msmsgs=msgrocm.dll,OcEntry,msmsgs.inf,hide,7 to 
msmsgs=msgrocm.dll,OcEntry,msmsgs.inf,7. Then remove it with add/remove 
programs.
Note that I'm not sure how to stop it from running at startup while 
keeping it on your system, as this was never my desire.
Bob


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21954
From: SpaceCadet 
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 19:05:53 -0600
Subject: Leonids
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

All,

Don't forget the Leonid Meteor shower tonight & tomorrow 
morning. Peak viewing times are determined by location 
(around 11:30 pm EST and 5:30 am EST).  NASA has an 
informative web page on the Leonids at 
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2002/14nov_leonidtips.htm?list833466

Happy viewing, Carol


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21955
From: K7AAY John Bartley of Portland, OR  " 
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 23:00:55 -0800
Subject: Re: Air Powered Car
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Boyle's law indicates what would happen when the compressed gas expans?

On Tue, 05 Nov 2002 06:34:01 -0800, Bob <chil-out@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>
>De-lurking for a moment.
>
>All fine and dandy, but as a resident of Sacramento ( where  it's hotternhell in
>the summer), how would one have a/c on this vehicle?
>Yes, it's a great idea, if the physics work ( and I do not have enough knowledge
>of physics to comment on that.)
>Bob (Registered Old Fart)
>
>


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21956
From: William Dennis" 
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 11:39:18 -0600
Subject: Re: Dread Plush Cthulhu
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

How does one pronounce "Cthulhu?"

--
Bill Dennis
http://billdennis.net
"I believe it is better to tell the truth than to lie. I believe that it is
better to be free than to be a slave. And I believe that it is better to
know than to be ignorant." -- H.L. Mencken



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21957
From: Bill Dauphin 
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 18:11:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Leonids
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On 11/18/02 8:05 PM, in article 3DD98E71.2050900@planet-save.com,
"SpaceCadet" <cadozo@planet-save.com> wrote:

> All,
> 
> Don't forget the Leonid Meteor shower tonight & tomorrow
> morning. Peak viewing times are determined by location
> (around 11:30 pm EST and 5:30 am EST).  NASA has an
> informative web page on the Leonids at
> http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2002/14nov_leonidtips.htm?list833466
> 
> Happy viewing, Carol
> 
Clouded out here in Hartford; anybody see any?

-JovBill


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21958
From: SpaceCadet 
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 17:23:37 -0600
Subject: Re: Leonids
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

None here in Austin due to too bright of a moon, and some 
clouds that were only in the eastern sky.

Carol
--------
Bill Dauphin wrote:
> On 11/18/02 8:05 PM, in article 3DD98E71.2050900@planet-save.com,
> "SpaceCadet" <cadozo@planet-save.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>>All,
>>
>>Don't forget the Leonid Meteor shower tonight & tomorrow
>>morning. Peak viewing times are determined by location
>>(around 11:30 pm EST and 5:30 am EST).  NASA has an
>>informative web page on the Leonids at
>>http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2002/14nov_leonidtips.htm?list833466
>>
>>Happy viewing, Carol
>>
> 
> Clouded out here in Hartford; anybody see any?
> 
> -JovBill
> 


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21959
From: Dee" 
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 18:49:17 -0600
Subject: Re: Leonids
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

"Bill Dauphin" <dauphinb@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:BA002F3F.544-dauphinb@ix.netcom.com...
> Clouded out here in Hartford; anybody see any?


Prety good seeing in SE Alabama, but the show was not as flashy as I
expected after all the news hype.

--Dee



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21960
From: Voxwoman 
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 19:54:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Leonids
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

I saw 1 big one at 5:15 AM. Nothing at 3AM. Haze and clouds moving in 
made it very difficult to see much of anything. My daughter reported 
seeing 4 or 5 during the 20 minutes we froze in the early morning. 
Between the moon and the lights from NY, it was pretty dismal.

*Last year,* however, we got a spectacular light show, despite the NY 
light pollution and my neighbors all having their yard lights on.

The astronomers last year were predicting more meteors/hour than 2001, 
but they did say that the conditions would be better in '01 than last 
night (because of the full moon)
-Wendy of nJ

Bill Dauphin wrote:

> On 11/18/02 8:05 PM, in article 3DD98E71.2050900@planet-save.com,
> "SpaceCadet" <cadozo@planet-save.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>>All,
>>
>>Don't forget the Leonid Meteor shower tonight & tomorrow
>>morning. Peak viewing times are determined by location
>>(around 11:30 pm EST and 5:30 am EST).  NASA has an
>>informative web page on the Leonids at
>>http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2002/14nov_leonidtips.htm?list833466
>>
>>Happy viewing, Carol
>>
>>
> Clouded out here in Hartford; anybody see any?
> 
> -JovBill
> 
> 


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21961
From: djinn 
Date: 20 Nov 2002 01:05:27 GMT
Subject: Re: Leonids
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Bill Dauphin <dauphinb@ix.netcom.com> wrote in news:BA002F3F.544-
dauphinb@ix.netcom.com:

> On 11/18/02 8:05 PM, in article 3DD98E71.2050900@planet-save.com,
> "SpaceCadet" <cadozo@planet-save.com> wrote:
> 
>> All,
>> 
>> Don't forget the Leonid Meteor shower tonight & tomorrow
>> morning. Peak viewing times are determined by location
>> (around 11:30 pm EST and 5:30 am EST).  NASA has an
>> informative web page on the Leonids at
>> http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2002/14nov_leonidtips.htm?list833466
>> 
>> Happy viewing, Carol
>> 
> Clouded out here in Hartford; anybody see any?
> 
> -JovBill
> 

Clear and cloudless here in So Cal, once the moon set the show was pretty 
good.  

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21962
From: djinn 
Date: 20 Nov 2002 01:06:16 GMT
Subject: Re: Dread Plush Cthulhu
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

"William Dennis" <william.dennis@insightbb.com> wrote in
news:3dda7747.0@news.sff.net: 

> How does one pronounce "Cthulhu?"
> 
> --
> Bill Dennis

> 
> 
> 

like its spelled of course. :)

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21963
From: SpaceCadet 
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 19:16:12 -0600
Subject: Re: Dread Plush Cthulhu
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

For some reason, I read it the sound I "hear" in my head is 
"choo-choo." But it's probably more like "thoo-loo."

But choo-choo works for me.

Carol
----------
djinn wrote:
> "William Dennis" <william.dennis@insightbb.com> wrote in
> news:3dda7747.0@news.sff.net: 
> 
> 
>>How does one pronounce "Cthulhu?"
>>
>>--
>>Bill Dennis
> 
> 
>>
>>
> 
> like its spelled of course. :)


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21964
From: Ed Johnson 
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 22:16:13 -0500
Subject: Re: Leonids
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Bill:    Didn't see much.  There were clouds obscuring the
north-east.  Poor viewing and I didn't give my self much time to
look.  I saw one flash at 5:30 AM that was so weak that I not sure
if it was part of the 'light show' or not.
My local (Philadelphia) news radio station was interviewing people
who said that it was a great display ( they were thirty miles to my
west:  probably less clouds at their local.)

Ed J

On Tue, 19 Nov 2002 18:11:11 -0500, Bill Dauphin
<dauphinb@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> 
>Clouded out here in Hartford; anybody see any?
>
>-JovBill


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21965
From: Kristina Forsyth" 
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 22:40:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Dread Plush Cthulhu
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

I've always heard Kuh-THOOloo.

T

SpaceCadet <cadozo@planet-save.com> wrote in message
news:3DDAE25C.70503@planet-save.com...
> For some reason, I read it the sound I "hear" in my head is
> "choo-choo." But it's probably more like "thoo-loo."
>
> But choo-choo works for me.
>
> Carol
> ----------
> djinn wrote:
> > "William Dennis" <william.dennis@insightbb.com> wrote in
> > news:3dda7747.0@news.sff.net:
> >
> >
> >>How does one pronounce "Cthulhu?"
> >>
> >>--
> >>Bill Dennis
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> > like its spelled of course. :)
>



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21966
From: SpaceCadet 
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 21:52:46 -0600
Subject: Re: Dread Plush Cthulhu
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Oh, I was assuming the 'c' was almost silent like the 'c' in 
czar (or the 't' in tzar). But it sounds like I guessed 
pretty close.

Carol

Kristina Forsyth wrote:
> I've always heard Kuh-THOOloo.
> 
> T
> 
> SpaceCadet <cadozo@planet-save.com> wrote in message
> news:3DDAE25C.70503@planet-save.com...
> 
>>For some reason, I read it the sound I "hear" in my head is
>>"choo-choo." But it's probably more like "thoo-loo."
>>
>>But choo-choo works for me.
>>
>>Carol
>>----------
>>djinn wrote:
>>
>>>"William Dennis" <william.dennis@insightbb.com> wrote in
>>>news:3dda7747.0@news.sff.net:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>How does one pronounce "Cthulhu?"
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>Bill Dennis
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>like its spelled of course. :)
>>
> 
> 


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21967
From: Bob Lawson 
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 20:13:25 -0800
Subject: Re: Leonids
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

SpaceCadet wrote:

> All,
>
> Don't forget the Leonid Meteor shower tonight & tomorrow morning. Peak
> viewing times are determined by location (around 11:30 pm EST and 5:30
> am EST).  NASA has an informative web page on the Leonids at
> http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2002/14nov_leonidtips.htm?list833466
>
> Happy viewing, Carol
>
Nasty light pollution here in San Luis Obispo (roughly half-way between 
San Francisco and LA), with a full moon and proximity to a freeway,  but 
we had some good sights. My fellow residents and I went up to the roof 
and watched for about an hour; there were a few really intense ones and 
a minor one every 20 seconds or so around 2:30. The last two times I 
tried to see them it was either foggy or rainy, so I was glad to finally 
get to see them.
Bob


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21968
From: Bob Lawson 
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 20:17:56 -0800
Subject: Re: Dread Plush Cthulhu
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

William Dennis wrote:

> How does one pronounce "Cthulhu?"
>
> --
> Bill Dennis
> http://billdennis.net
> "I believe it is better to tell the truth than to lie. I believe that 
> it is
> better to be free than to be a slave. And I believe that it is better to
> know than to be ignorant." -- H.L. Mencken
>
>
This is from: http://www.hplovecraft.com/creation/bestiary.htm

"
	Here are a couple of excerpts from Lovecraft’s letters where he 
discusses the pronunciation of this word:

     The actual sound – as nearly as human organs could imitate it or 
human letters record it – may be taken as something like Khlûl’-hloo, 
with the first syllable pronounced gutturally and very thickly. The u is 
about like that in full; and the first syllable is not unlike klul in 
sound, since the h represents the guttural thickness. The second 
syllable is not very well rendered – the l sound being unrepresented. 
(to Duane Rimel, 23 July 1934)
"

Though I usually hear it kuh-thoo-loo
Bob


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21969
From: Michael P. Calligaro" 
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 21:57:22 -0800
Subject: Re: Dread Plush Cthulhu
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Me too, though the "Kuh" is a tiny bit unvoiced.

bytor

"Kristina Forsyth" <kgf@sff.net> wrote in message
news:3ddb03c4.0@news.sff.net...
> I've always heard Kuh-THOOloo.
>
> T




------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21970
From: noone" 
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 02:27:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Dread Plush Cthulhu
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

with great fear and loathing
"gunner"
------------------------
"William Dennis" <william.dennis@insightbb.com> wrote in message
news:3dda7747.0@news.sff.net...
> How does one pronounce "Cthulhu?"
>
> --
> Bill Dennis
> http://billdennis.net
> "I believe it is better to tell the truth than to lie. I believe that it
is
> better to be free than to be a slave. And I believe that it is better to
> know than to be ignorant." -- H.L. Mencken
>
>



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21971
From: Eli Hestermann 
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 06:20:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Dread Plush Cthulhu
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Bob's official version notwithstanding, this is the way I've heard it.
Easier for us humans.

"Michael P. Calligaro" wrote:

> Me too, though the "Kuh" is a tiny bit unvoiced.
>
> bytor
>
> "Kristina Forsyth" <kgf@sff.net> wrote in message
> news:3ddb03c4.0@news.sff.net...
> > I've always heard Kuh-THOOloo.
> >
> > T

--
Eli V. Hestermann
ehestermann@tmlp.com
"Vita brevis est, ars longa" - Seneca



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21972
From: anonymous@sff.net (Anonymous Visitor)
Date: 20 Nov 2002 15:37:16 GMT
Subject: Re: Windows XP????
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Unfortunately, bytor, it won't quite do the job. A significant amount of
spyware use BHOs, or Browser Helper Objects. These are .dll files that run
when your browser runs, and you are stuck with them unless you either find
and uninstall them in the Add/Remove Programs, or you know exactly what
registry key to kill.

Filksinger

bytor wrote:

"I found a really cool program this week for this kind of thing.  It's built
into XP, so you don't have to go to a website and download anything (which
can be a dangerous thing).

It's in a strange place, but go to your windows directory (often c:\windows)
and then go to system32\dllcache and run msinfo32.exe.  Within the program,
go to Software Environment->Startup Programs and you'll see everything
that's set to run on start.

Now, deciphering which of these thing are SUPPOSED to be there and which
aren't can be tricky, and figuring out what to do with them when you
determine that you've got things that shouldn't be there can also be tricky.
But this is still a cool tool.  If anyone thinks they may have something
that they don't want running, they can use this program, "export" the data
to a text file, and post it here.  I (and others I'm sure) would be happy
to
decipher it and, if you've got bad stuff, walk you through getting rid of
it.

bytor

"Filksinger"  wrote in message
news:3dcc8313.0@news.sff.net...
> However, many other programs do exactly what you describe. They are called
> "spyware". To find out if you have one on your system, go to
> www.lavasoftusa.com and download Ad-Aware."

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21973
From: Gordon G. Sollars 
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 10:55:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Dread Plush Cthulhu
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3ddb0cf9.0@news.sff.net>, Bob Lawson writes...
> William Dennis wrote:
> 
> > How does one pronounce "Cthulhu?"
....
>      The actual sound – as nearly as human organs could imitate it or 
> human letters record it – may be taken as something like Khlûl’-hloo,

I am a simple man.  If the dreaded Cthulhu wanted /three/ "ell" sounds in 
his name, why did he put only one letter "l" in it?  Many feared that 
Cthulhu would get out of 'ell, but now it seems that some are determined 
to really put the ell back in Cthulhu. 

In any event, the last syllable looks like it is pronounced "hu" as in 
"no hu-hu", and that is what I think you will have if you pronounce it 
that way.  ;-)

-- 
Gordon Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21974
From: Bob Lawson 
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 11:16:10 -0800
Subject: Re: Dread Plush Cthulhu
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

However, this begs this question of how one pronounces "no hu-hu". Is it 
    "huh-hoo" or "huh-huh", or something entirely different?
Bob

>
> In any event, the last syllable looks like it is pronounced "hu" as in
> "no hu-hu", and that is what I think you will have if you pronounce it
> that way.  ;-)
>


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21975
From: filksinger@earthling.net
Date: 20 Nov 2002 21:31:57 GMT
Subject: Re: Dread Plush Cthulhu
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

I see the madness of Cthulhu has pervaded this topic.:)

Filksinger

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21976
From: filksinger@earthling.net
Date: 20 Nov 2002 21:35:02 GMT
Subject: Interesting article
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

More on this later.
http://www.aclu.org/Privacy/Privacy.cfm?ID=11323&c=130

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21977
From: filksinger@earthling.net
Date: 22 Nov 2002 18:03:05 GMT
Subject: Re: Interesting article
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

I said I would send more.

http://geocities.com/totalinformationawareness/
http://la.indymedia.org/news/2002/11/22486.php

Now, I have just one question. Why would a secretive government agency dedicated
to espionage, run by Rear Admiral "It is my duty to lie to Congress" Poindexter,
and putting most of its resources in a project that sounds downright Orwellian,
create a symbol for public display that shows the Illuminati "All-Seeing
Eye" spying on the entire planet, with the moto, in Latin, "Knowledge is
Power"? Why not just create a picture of a big eye and say, "Big Brother
is Watching You"?

Filksinger

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21978
From: ShiraDaemon" 
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 13:49:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Interesting article
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Because they're looking for support from the, er, libertarians?

ken

<filksinger@earthling.net> wrote in message news:3dde7159.0@news.sff.net...
I said I would send more.

http://geocities.com/totalinformationawareness/
http://la.indymedia.org/news/2002/11/22486.php

Now, I have just one question. Why would a secretive government agency
dedicated
to espionage, run by Rear Admiral "It is my duty to lie to Congress"
Poindexter,
and putting most of its resources in a project that sounds downright
Orwellian,
create a symbol for public display that shows the Illuminati "All-Seeing
Eye" spying on the entire planet, with the moto, in Latin, "Knowledge is
Power"? Why not just create a picture of a big eye and say, "Big Brother
is Watching You"?

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21979
From: Gordon G. Sollars 
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 17:29:44 -0500
Subject: Re: Interesting article
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3dde7159.0@news.sff.net>, filksinger@earthling.net writes...
> I said I would send more.
> 
> http://geocities.com/totalinformationawareness/
> http://la.indymedia.org/news/2002/11/22486.php
> 
> Now, I have just one question. Why would a secretive government agency dedicated
> to espionage, run by Rear Admiral "It is my duty to lie to Congress" Poindexter,
> and putting most of its resources in a project that sounds downright Orwellian,
> create a symbol for public display that shows the Illuminati "All-Seeing
> Eye" spying on the entire planet, with the moto, in Latin, "Knowledge is
> Power"? Why not just create a picture of a big eye and say, "Big Brother
> is Watching You"?

Because Poindexter is sending a secret message to Robert A. Wilson.  The 
obvious interpretation is, "The Illuminati are now in control".  The 
hidden message could be, "The Illuminati appear to be in control but 
are not".  

-- 
Gordon Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21980
From: Gordon G. Sollars 
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 17:33:18 -0500
Subject: Re: Interesting article
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <MPG.184879e5358bb5ab98981b@news.sff.net>, Gordon G. Sollars 
writes...

There is no enemy anywhere.

-- 
Gordon Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21981
From: Gordon G. Sollars 
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 17:33:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Interesting article
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <MPG.184879e5358bb5ab98981b@news.sff.net>, Gordon G. Sollars 
writes...

There is no friend anywhere.

-- 
Gordon Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com

------------------------------------------------------------

============================================================
Archive of:   sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Archive desc: The Internet home for the Heinlein Forum
Archived by:  webnews@sff.net
Archive date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 06:51:47
First article in this archive:  21951
Last article in this archive:   21981
Oldest article in this archive: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 19:49:11 -0800
Newest article in this archive: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 20:10:59 -0800